I am posting here because I love DCBC and am saddened to see what is happening there now. When I first started coming to DCBC, I was welcomed warmly by a congregation that was so dynamic and full of the Spirit of God. Now all I see is a church divided!
I no longer see the church growing, but in fact I am seeing signs that it is dying. Attendance at the Wednesday night prayer meeting is dwindling and the Summer Friday night youth program has been cancelled.
It seems like things have started to go downhill since James Yi started. Does anyone else share my feelings?
571 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 571 Newer› Newest»We don't cast a stone, we cast our vote.
We don't vote to say "yes he is guilty" or "no I choose to forgive him", he wronged and we want to forgive him, no votes needed for that.
We cast our votes to determine if he is qualified to be our senior pastor and what kind of impact he will give to this church if he stays.
according to Bible's teaching and his own preaching, he is far off being a qualified pastor.
and the impact to our church, well, you've already seen the prelude, dare to continue?
I am so sad about this situation. I am surprising to see so many people do not trust him. I know DCBC ByLaw has " senior pastor needs to give a 6months NOTICE when resigning.". But ByLaw does not mention in which situation senior pastor is. I suggest we can offer him "6 months absent with pay". For once, if he really "love" DCBC, he should receive this offer. Return DCBC back to Elders and church members. Pray to God.
提前4：16有二个谨慎：你要谨慎自己和自己的教训。这说明一个传道人要有二个谨慎：一个是关乎自己，一个是关乎神的教训；关乎自己是关于生命的问题，关乎教训是你的信仰的问题！信仰要合乎圣经，不能够违背圣经；你的生命要配合圣经，不能够口里讲一套，你另做一套！圣经讲男女婚姻，我们不赞同同性婚姻；圣经讲不可奸淫，我们不会去奸淫；圣经说不可欺骗，我们能去欺骗吗？可是多少的时候，我们为了自己各自的前途丶个人的利益丶个人的信誉，做了很多违背圣经的教导，还以为可以瞒天过海丶骗神骗鬼；以为神不知鬼不觉，骗了神骗了鬼！以后东窗事发给人揭破了。还有我们讲的话就变成强辞夺理，老龙套又登场：发起暴动，所以信徒就变成暴民，上帝要在天上痛骂地上不肖的儿女。现在教会发生一件非常严重的事丶很严重的问题；我们以事论事，用神的智慧去分析丶去解决。
差不多的问题都和提前4：16有关，就是关乎那二个谨慎，也是跟教会的牧者有关！下面我讲的话，用“牧师”这个词代表现在的牧师，用“教会”这个词代表非教牧同工。牧师在教训的方面，我发现有些问题是关乎神学方面的，有些是关乎他自己的做人方面的，是关乎他做人的诚信。神学性的问题有关救恩论，他赞同主权得救论。主权得救论就是指相信主还不够，还要把生命的主权献身给神才能得救；如果是这样，小孩子就很难得救，因为他们根本不懂怎么样把生命主权交出来。我相信主权得救论很难带小孩子到天上去。主权得救论在很多方面和圣经有矛盾。
罗马10：10（因为人心里相信，就可以称义；口里承认，就可以得救。）罗12：1（所以弟兄们！我以神的慈悲劝你们，将身体献上，当作活祭，是圣洁的，是 神所喜悦的；你们如此侍奉，乃是理所当然的。） 保罗是对那些得救的人讲话，是劝勉他们把生命的主权交给神。所以我发现主权得救论跟圣经在很多的地方不和谐。主权得救论不是DCBC的传统信仰，也不是传统福音派的信仰；主权得救论把主和救主分开，认为主和救主是分开的。可是在圣经里面我们发现主是代表神的另一个名字；比如：主耶和华说丶主神说，这些名字在大小先知书里出现千百多次；主耶稣基督诞生时，天使有一个宣言：“今天在大卫的城里，为你们生了一个救主，就是主基督。”所以你接受耶稣，就是接受真神。外邦人称他们的神为主，我们称主耶稣基督是我们的主；所以我们看见主和救主是同一个名字。主耶稣基督的12个门徒中有一个叫多马的，他一看见主耶稣基督复活以后，马上大声喊叫说：“我的主，我的神啊！”因为复活就是主耶稣基督是神的明证！保罗说你们只要承认相信耶稣基督是神，你们就得救了。
所以，我们看见信心是有一个层次的，委身丶奉献都有一个层次。那个血漏的妇人一摸耶稣基督的衣服坠子，她就马上得救！她根本不懂得什么是委身奉献；那个瘸子被四个朋友抬去见耶稣，因人太多了，那个瘸子挤不进去，他们就把他抬上房顶，拆开房顶，把他放下去，主耶酥见他对他说：“你的信救了你！”不是他的委身拯救了他，他根本不懂得什么是委身奉献；十字架旁边有个强盗，一相信主马上得救！他也没有去过主日学，没有去过教会，没有听过任何一篇讲道，但是他一信就马上得救了，他也根本不懂得什么是委身奉献。信心是有层次的，小孩子有小孩子的层次，他们有信心却没有委身；成年人有成年人的信心，也有成年人层面的委身。委身不委身跟你的救恩没有关系。有了真信心就可以得救，不管你的信心是多小；只要这个信心是真诚的，那个信心就把你带到了天堂！主权得救论就是把准备将生命主权交给主作为得救过程中的头一个部分；而救恩论的第一点就是信，第二点是准备把你的生命主权交给神，一路到你回天家去！
Every DCBC member needs to ask the following questions: Why did Mr. Yi send his resignation letter to every DCBC member instead of church leaders only? Why did he send the "response to elders" letter to his supporters and then resignation letter to all members at almost same time/day? What is his real purpose? resignation, or just gaining an advantage on voting, or stopping the voting at all?
Please come to vote on 10/09 unless Mr. Yi signs a resignation agreement with church leaders to resign immediately.
He who has sharp tongue cuts own throat...
I challenge you pharisees to a duel...dare I say...DDR? OH SNAP!
To YHG,
I agree with you. We need to cast our votes on 10/9 because he's playing a game and we can't trust him.
Chuck Norris says...Love your enemies, it pisses them off...
Yi didn't say when his last day is at DCBC and we don't know what kind of game he's playing. We need to let our voices be heard by him clearly, so cast our votes on Sunday.
Chuck Norris likes Matthew 7:15....yeah, pour me another glass of shut yo mouth...Mahn Tao, you wanna feel my roundhouse kick? You want to see me slam shut a revolving door? I think not...shazaam!
謝謝那位弟兄或姊妹把馬牧師的講稿放上來，辛苦了！對我的幫助很大, 更堅定DCBC以往的教導是對的。不容這位沒有好好上神學課的人指東指西。願 神恩待DCBC.
有关个人诚信的方面，牧师交给DCBD履历表来申请做主任牧师的时候，他没有神学院的文凭，却填有；这是欺骗教会！这不像他说的是无心而是有意的，是有意的欺骗！你欺骗你的邻居，你欺骗你的太太丶丈夫，我不能管；但是你为了准备做教会的主任牧师而欺骗，那是另外一回事。欺骗对普通人并非列为大罪，但是对牧师就会列为很严重的事；因为他不是普通人，他是教会的领导人，是属灵领袖，是榜样！如果人人都以他为榜样，那么教会必定大乱！教会根据他履历表上填的内容，已经尽力去调查他的背景；当然有些背景不容易被你查到，除非当事人告诉你；于是教会就被他填的资料误导了！差不多过了一年以后，才有人在偶然之间发现有不太对的地方，他就路见不平，拔刀仗义，揭开履历表的秘密；这才知道他是故意地欺骗教会而来做主任牧师；所以教会是受害人！反而现在有人怪教会糊里糊涂聘了他，请错他来，是教会的错，不是他的错，教会翻了旧帐就来清算他；有这种看法的就调转矛头来指控教会犯了大错，于是教会聘牧委员会就蒙了冤屈！但是哑巴吃黄连，有苦自己知！就像有人见到了贼出来，他不去抓贼，反而大怪那些抓贼的人；那可真是滑天下之大稽。后来不久，牧师就说不小心地弄错了；一次弄错了人人都会，二次都有，三次犯同样的错，显然不是无意的，是故意的！如果他再说是无意之心呢，就把自己的诚信越弄越糟了。后来东窗事发，有人发现了，他公开向教会承认有错，表示他也接受不是无意之错而是有意之错。并且他得到教会的原谅；教会是对他好，只是他个人的诚信就蒙受到质疑，他的领导就有一个大黑点；因为他到底不是一个普通信徒，他是教会的代表，他本来有被教会按立的诚信，有被委派要带领人的诚信；一旦有骗人，什么诚信都丢失了！如果他能骗东他也能骗西，他应该在教会树立一个好的榜样！下一回我去骗人，不给人发现就继续骗下去；给人发现了，我就马上后悔给人认错，被原谅了就好像从来没发生什么事，还鼓励那些支持我的人去反对那些原谅我的人。
God knows and you all knows Rev. Ma's opinion just reflect what he heard from only one side. Do you think the one who stirred up all the commotions will admit they did it? I agree with Rev. Ma that we don't want the Church split but who is really the 劊子手?
there're 3 sides to every story...your side, my side and the truth. it's great to see everyone at DCBC so pious...
Yi's lies got caught on the recording, you can defend him all you want, but it won't alter the truth. Question is, why are you so blind sided?
有人说教会已经原谅他了，还有人向他秋后算账丶拖他后腿丶逐他离开，是教会没有爱心！说一个牧师有错，其中四个主任牧师有没有错？另外还有8个传道人有没有错？4加8这12个人都有错，那么DCBC所请过的牧者丶传道全部都聘错，我们要他们何用？不如通通把他们赶走吧，我们自己教导自己好了！我数一数，从马牧师开始到现在的伊牧师共有七个主任牧师，全部要干掉他们。我同意牧师都是人，不是神仙；人总有错，牧师都有错，都因为有错全部要走清光，全世界的牧师都要走光；那么神拣选牧师来做传道丶牧者是神的错，我们把神干掉吧，那么相信无神论好过有神论。所以我们要小心，要谨慎自己的行事为人，要谨慎我们口中说的话，我们要弄清楚是什么错。不是什么错都要公开，只是对教会有害的错我们才要公开！在那个新约的时代，有很多的教会领袖为财为利丶为名为誉，有神学性地丶有道德性地丶有个人生活性地逐步把信徒带进他们的里面；他们叫做假先知丶假师傅，今天我们就叫他们假牧师。
其实做牧师挺不容易，做一个好牧人带领羊群到青草地，到溪水旁，到安息地，真是用心良苦丶小心照顾跟随他的羊群；全程照顾老羊丶中羊丶小羊；羊走错路就用杆把他带回来；有野狼来的时候，用杖来保护羊；所以很多的时候保护羊群时可能会受伤，当时为了羊的生命却一点都不怕，甚至为羊舍命！为羊舍命不是帮助野狼要羊的命；羊有伤害，牧人爱它都来不及，雪中送炭都来不及，哪会雪上加霜丶在伤口上撒一把盐？如果我有一点不爱我的羊，我会头一个要转行，我不要做羊群的牧人！所以做一个好牧人挺不容易，要肯吃苦丶肯吃亏。好牧人要肯牺牲丶肯卖命，一生都为羊奉上自己。羊不听话，好牧人不准向羊发脾气，不会用杖打羊群，反而对羊说：对不起，我不懂得教你，要改过自己，我替你找一个更好的牧人来带领你，因为我不配作你的牧人！所以做牧人挺不容易，做一个好牧人更不容易！很多教会都有工人荒，因为工人怕带领得不好反而贻害羊群！做牧人伤害羊群的新闻多得很，全美国都有，全世界都有。找一个好牧人挺不容易，找一个好教会也不容易，因为只有好牧人才有好教会，因为二者都分不开的。
somebody prob said this already...but satan's having a field day at DCBC. We're all stoking the fire
一个牧师最喜欢的是给人受浸，但是他首先要尊重自己蒙召的身份：那就是他是神的仆人！神的仆人顾名思义是服事主的人，他是透过服事教会去服事主！教会里面人头涌涌，所以他是服事人头涌涌的每一个人；教会有人争执丶吵架，他去调停；教会有人欺骗，他去教训去警告不要再做；他主导的教会是使弟兄姊妹彼此相爱和睦同居的；如果教会有人分门结党的，他要去告诉他们不要分门结党；分门结党就是分裂教会，就是分裂主的心，是把一把刀插进主的心窝里面！我们千万不要干！那么他自己也绝对不会带头搞革命，去推翻管理他的人，他本身也要服从管理的权柄，这才显出他爱教会，才能显出他是一个好仆人！
欺骗是一个全世界最普遍的罪。全世界骗子千千万万，中国骗子居世界之冠；中国骗子的技术最为高超；有假鸡丶假牛肉丶假鸡蛋等等；中国有句名言：在中国什么都是假的，惟有骗子才是真的！欺骗的人千千万万，什么地方都有在教会里面也不例外。牧师犯了一个很平凡的罪，可是牧师的身份与众不同：他是一个不平凡的人，他是神的仆人丶教会的仆人；不平凡的人犯了平凡的罪是另外一回事！他是教会的头丶教会的榜样，普通人犯并不算厉害，牧师犯了就是顶厉害的！欺骗在一般的公司里面是马上被解雇丶被开除；他怎样悔改丶怎样求情，公司也不会聘他回来，那么他只能够另谋高就。
牧师，一个不平凡的人犯了平凡的罪，教会已经原谅了他，那是教会对他好，可是他需要自己承担后果，他不能继续向以前一样大摇大摆下去。如果教会有冤枉他的地方，教会要认错；如果没有，教会要对方认错。教会是神家，家中的仆人因服事的缘故常常有争执，那很平常，但主人心中一定不痛快！主人爱仆人的爱是肯定的，但是仆人当中也有彼此的相爱；没有彼此的配搭同工，也是常常有事！在香港有一个教会因为某种的缘故，那个教会分成二帮，有拥牧师帮，有反牧师帮，争个不停，告到法院去了；报纸的头条新闻：弟兄打弟兄，拳头分高下！另外还有一条：煮豆燃豆箕，豆在釜中泣。不信主的人看见教会乱七八糟，他们就嘻哈大笑，魔鬼更是狂笑不停。
最近我读到一篇文章，名叫“有情反绝情”！文章说有一个人在冬天的时候去买房子，表面环境都很满意，买成了就搬进去了，不要忘记那是冬天！冬天过了，春天来了，前园后院杂草丛生如森林；因为那是冬天看房子的，那个时候是厚厚的雪盖满前园后院，看不见雪下的杂草；那么春天来了，杂草生了，那个主人就狠心去除杂草啦！除杂草有三个秘诀：第一要狠，狠心干，因杂草和房子的潜质有关系！第二要绝，绝情的绝，不能够姑息，姑息助于养奸，不能留下一个杂草的子孙，因它们长大会来报仇！第三要勤，要常常做，要常常监视看有没有杂草复活！所以拔杂草要够狠丶够绝丶够勤！人总要有情，可是有时候用情要懂得分清楚好的坏的，有时候绝情是唯一解决的方法！
Pastor Yi already resigned ... which means there will be NO VOTE.
VOTE is ON unless you hear it otherwise from church officials. Everyone, please read what Pastor Ma has to say. The issue here is not about forgiveness, although we forgive because Jesus have already forgiven us, but it is about our church and what it stands for. If Pastor Yi continue as our Senior Pastor, DCBC will not only loose its salt of the earth function, but also its effectiveness in witnessing. Our church will be nothing more than a well oiled profit driven corporation without the love for the lost, hungry, and the poor. Please humble ourselves and ask God to cleanse our hearts and clear our eyes of any debris, and cast our vote this Sunday.
Warning!!!!!!
Mr. Yi is working on three plans.
1. Take over DCBC by changing the current Elder and Deacon board, and elect Mr. Yi’s Board. After that he will return to DCBC.
2. Build a new church in Dallas area.
3. Go back to Minnesota and take over his old church.
The first two choices are for his followers to work on in Dallas. Therefore, he already told them. The third one is for himself and his followers are not aware of.
Brothers and Sisters, just like that brother said in Pastor Ma’s meeting, “The church is already divided!” We should prepare ourselves for the worst and be strong and united to fight this trial.
Conspiracy theorists abounds at DCBC eh? I can just hear satan laughing...still.
Guys, if you support Yi and can't stand DCBC, please leave, go with him and never return. We are ready to reconcile, ready to leave this Yi drama behind us. Ask yourself, if you are not ready to let go, please go...
Now I know why Mr. Yi insisted his last day in DCBC will be Oct 31 instead of resigning immediately. because he needs 3 more weeks to play the following games:
1. Try to take over DCBC by changing current elders, and deacon board. In 2nd day after Yi sent his resignation letter, he sent a letter to ask the elders to resign/to be removed. But our by-law never mentions that the elders are removable. The elders have not done anything wrong. So the elders do not need to worry because we (congregations) are supporting you.
2. Give the pressure to the church leaders by having a few pastors who support Yi to resign. This will not success because our congregation will realize that their activities neither help us to re-unit our church nor show their loving to our church and our church could survive even without them.
3. Control deacon board election by manipulating the deacon candidate list. Our elders have to take the role of senior pastors in the process of finding deacon candidates.
Satan is continuing to try to divide and destroy our church. But God will protect us.
Matthew 4:10: Jesus said to him, "Away from me. Satan!"
Psalms 23:4: Even through I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
Brothers and sisters, and especially Mahn Tao, we must be careful in how we pursue this vile conspiracy. We must unite in standing united behind a banner of unity. Any division and we will be divided. This church would do well to heed the words of a wise Christian:
"Quit playing games with my heart before you tear us apart. Quit playing games with my heart, I should have known from the start. You know you've gotta stop, you're tearing us apart. Quit playing games with my heart."
-Brian Solomon Bartholomew
I agree with YHG.
Mr. Yi has some hidden agenda so watch out and be careful and not fall under his trap.
Yesterday at church, there's a lady who is the deacon's wife, requesting members to sign a petition to remove the 2 elders and the deacon board president... i don't understand why she is doing this... the 2 elders and deacons are working for the good of the church, they don't get paid like the senior pastor,, we should appreciate the time that they spent on our church...and should thank them.
I agree with YHG, if you don't like or agree with the descon board decision, leave and find another church, is this way, you are happy and we are happy too... it is time to reconcile and move on..
Going separately is hardly reconciling...yes? So it's hardly called reconciling. Maybe all of us with God, yes. At this point, the different factions see what they want to see and interpret what they want to. Selective hearing...it plagues us all
At the present time, we need to united and take care of the church businesses. That woman who asked church members to sign the petition is a trouble maker. We respect and love our elders and the Chairman of the Deacon Board for the hard work they've done for us.
She should be ashamed of her behaviors. If she wants to hurt or divide DCBC, she is not welcome staying in OUR church.
I DON'T see any reason to remove Elders. Did she mention any reason? Also, anyone has those three pastors' resignation letters (except Yi). Can someone PO here?
Dear brothers and sisters of DCBC,
Before posting anymore comments, please ask yourselves if what we are saying is a reflection of God's love, mercy and grace. Even if Pastor Yi did intend to mislead, are we responding in LOVE, GRACE and MERCY? The world will know that we are Christ's disciples by our love for one another. If a non-believer sees this blog, will He see Christ's love or Satan's trademark of dissension and accusations? Be careful when hurling accusations -- it is the devil's strategy to divide the church. Satan is having a good laugh at our church and we need to be on our knees, repenting and asking God that our church will not split because of our sins.
Dear heavenly Father, forgive us. We have sinned and we deserve only your judgment and wrath. But Lord, you are gracious, compassionate and abounding in LOVE. Have mercy upon your children at DCBC. Do not punish us according to our iniquities. Bind the powers of Satan who uses lies, deceptions and accusations - the trademarks of evil. Withhold your judgment and wrath. Bring healing, reconciliation and restoration to our church. Let your LOVE, GRACE and MERCY - the trademarks of Christ, reign in DCBC. Bring unity to our church. In Jesus' name, Amen.
1 Cor 13 - If I speak in human or angelic tongues but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor an give over my body to hardship, that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, it does not envy it does not boast, it is not proud. It does NOT DISHONOR OTHERS, it is not self-seeking, it is NOT EASILY ANGERED, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does NOT DELIGHT in EVIL but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.....And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is LOVE.
Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the ACCUSER of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
That woman's reason to remove Elders and Deacon is that she has a day dream
of she is the way and the truth. No one comes to DCBC except through her.
I have God's love. But, I still need to cast big stones to that deacon's wife.
Let's all pray for DCBC. I think any emotional language is not necessary now. Pray God to lead our church.
If some disagree with lady who is asking for petition of elders to step down, we should speak to her directly and ask our questions and confront her IN LOVE (Matt 18:15).
No need to rile up people's emotions and vent our ANGER on this blog. Doing this does not help unity of the church, only causing division.
She is Yi's follower. Does it not explain why she initiated the petition?
Even she is Yi's follower, we can still ask her reason nicely. Remember satan is working on every possible way to attack God.
We don't need her to create more problems at our church.
We should all be followers of Christ, not man. Language like that only causes division. If you disagree, speak with her privately.
Matt 18:15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
It is clear that who love our church and who does not.
Deacons and Elders work so hard to keep our church as one. We need to appreciate them. At this moment, we need to united and love each other. Especially love those mislead by Mr. Yi. Church is a big family for us, you love your family and when your family is in trouble you wound not leave it. So for those choose to leave, they did not belong to DCBC. But DCBC always welcome them back when they repent. Because God love them, so does DCBC. We love you no matter how much hurt you brought to DCBC before.
why can you do the same thing for Rev. Yi ?
Because he is a newcomer not as long as other members?
That person is silis' wife. she is one of the disciples of Yi. but i am sure yi's other disciples will do the same. you can stop them all.
It is Silas' wife Denise?
If the letter is from Denise, then Mrs. Yi or Julie Yu may draft it. Silas!!!
Do you have evidence that Mrs. Yi or Julie Yu drafted it? OR is it your speculation? if the latter, you are entering the realm of Accusation. Be careful as accusation is tool of Satan and is divisive. You are not helping unity of the church.
I agree with the last posting. Stop speculating and approach Denise PRIVATELY.
Someone did approach Denise and ask her to think about why she was circulating the petition.
Instead of spending time in blogging negative commands, let's spend more time in God's Word and praying.
Heb 4:12...check it...Amen?
Amen. This blog is full of accusations and speculations. We are entertaining Satan. Lord forgive us. This blog is such a bad witness to the world.
May the Lord have mercy on those who speak against their brothers and sisters
Forgive us Lord for grieving your Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30-32
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 GET RID OF of all BITTERNESS, RAGE and ANGER, brawling and SLANDER, along with every form of malice. 32 Be KIND and COMPASSIONATE to one another, FORGIVING each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not SLANDER one another. Anyone who SPEAKS AGAINST a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
Colossians 3:7-9
7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor SLANDERERS nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Titus 3
1 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to SLANDER NO ONE, to BE PEACEABLE and CONSIDERATE, and always to be GENTLE toward everyone.
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
To the previous person: does it make you "Holy" when you copy the bible in you dialect? Do you think you are more holy then others here? Aren't you judging others as well? I have no respect for people that's double standards like Yi and his disciples.
I agree with the previous person.
No need to be so sensitive. It's hard to gauge people's tone over email/IM/blog posting. It's something I had to learn in school and on the job front. Kids back in the days like to say, "take a chill pill" We can all simmer down a bit. Bible verses are God's word...take it for what it is. Have a good day everyone...because it is.
Do not forget Yi refused to step down for a long time. It is a God's miracle of Yi's resignation.
I do not feel I get blessed and mercy from God if I have to leave DCBC because a hypocrite caused me.
God knows the plot between DCBC and Yi
is not over yet. We have to continue to pray and fight for DCBC's survival.
I'M ARGUING ON THE INTERNET. UMAD, BRO???
ARGUE WITH ME!!!! I KNOW I'M RIGHT (CUZ JESUS SAID SO).
I CAN ALSO TYPE FASTER THAN YOU SO I CAN GET MORE INTERNET ARGUMENTS IN PER HOUR. YOU CAN'T WIN AGAINST MY TYPING SPEED.
LET ME RECAP: JESUS + TYPING SPEED = YOU LOSE.
Nothing wrong with copying Bible verses on the blog. We are Dallas Chinese BIBLE Church, are we not? if it convicts you, then praise God. If not, no need to attack others on the blog. Your anger and fighting words does not help unity, only dividing.
If you really love DCBC, pray for her, don't try to divide even more.
Dear Brother Cyyborg,
Jesus is a God of reconciliation which reconciled sinners to himself and has given believers the ministry of reconciliation to one other. Let's not fight our own brothers and sisters but seek reconciliation and unity.
2 Corinthians 5:17-19
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
I SEEK RECONCILIATION THROUGH THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS BLOG. DEATH TO BLOG. I FIGHT NO ONE.
RECONCILIATION AND UNITY DO NOT HAPPEN ON THE INTERNET. DO IT FACE TO FACE. BE A MAN.
NICE USE OF SCRIPTURE. THANK YOU FOR NOT JUDGING ME.
can almost see the faces of the people writing these blogs...anonymous or not. No worries...I won't poke around. Yes, blogging solves nothing. Suck up your fear, pride, anger, etc. and resolve F2F if you have issues.
Please forgive me Brother Cyyborg. I misunderstood you. haha, you are quite funny.
As for the resignation of Pastor Lin and Pastor Buhler, ask yourself this:
1. Why was Pastor Buhler here in the first place? Who brought him back?
2. The way Mrs. Buhler torn up the letter from the Elders on Sunday in public, and said "crap, crap, crap", now is it the proper way to act in God's house? Especially this act comes from a pastor's wife. What kind of message is the English ministry trying to send???
Yes, Mrs. Buhler's action was out of emotion and she shouldn't acted out of emotion. It is verified that she has already apologized and repented. Thus, issue is closed, unless you are trying to cause more division. If you still have a problem, talk to her privately according to Matt 18, no need to use this blog.
Be careful in trying to villainize "english ministry." Your language is divisive. If you love the church, you will be an instrument of reconciliation, not division. Many families have parents in the mandarin/cantonese and children in the English. If this church splits, family will be split as well. Pray and do not cause more division.
Are they leaving? when? Are they followiing Yi or going their own way? I would like them to stay, minus anything that might hurt the church unity. (i.e., emotional words or actions, ...)
yes, pray for our brothers and sisters in English and cantonese.
Many understand the seriousness of the resume issue. But they are saddened by how this whole process has been mishandled (through politics, campaigns, without grace) and are prayerfully considering leaving. If DCBC becomes mandarin only congregation, where are the children and youth going to go? Pray for our elders and deacons for wisdom to know how to reconcile all congregations. If we cause more division, we are causing more headaches for our elders. Pray, pray, pray. Be an instrument of reconciliation.
When she said she appologize, I am sure she meant for her action of that moment. But deep down does she still think the elder's letter crap? When we talk about unity, we need to go deeper than just scrap the surface.
Do you mean the church division is between Madrain and English? I thought that was betwwen if Yi should stay or not?
"they are saddened by how this whole process has been mishandled (through politics, campaigns, without grace) and are prayerfully considering leaving."
I think almost everybody would agree with you, no matter what side he/she was on. We used to point fingers for "them" been playing politics, campaigns and without grace, now it's time to point back to ourselves, we've been guilty to all these accounts too. It's time to bury the hachets and submit to our Lord and with His mercy, the church will revive.
"When she said she appologize, I am sure she meant for her action of that moment. But deep down does she still think the elder's letter crap?"
Can you see her heart or are you speculating and accusing her? Talk to her and ask her privately if you have a problem.
It is OK to disagree on matters.
Unity does not mean we all have to think the same way, then we are just robots. Unity is loving and respecting each other, in spite of our differences so long as we ultimately submit to Christ and His word.
I don't mean you should blindly agree with anyone. Before you determine it's actually "crap", I think you should at least read it, verify it if you have doubt. We are talking about letter from our elders, if you don't intend to take it seriously, there will be no goodwill communicaiton hence the apology is unnecessary
I agree that we have to read the letter from our elders carefully and ask our questions before deciding to agree or disagree.
That's a separate issue from talking about her in this blog though.
If you have a problem with her and don't think her apology was sincere, you should discuss with her, privately and try to reconcile with her. What you say in this blog about her will not help you reconcile with her.
I don't even know her, nor question if her apology is sincere or not. I simply hope that she is.
anyone on this blog read the letter from Rev. Yi
in response to elders' letter?
Yi is gone done, why bring it up again?
"He" is going to set up a new congregation nearby N. Dallas area.
Therefore, some DCBC's members and pastors may leave.
Please pray and spend more time concerning DCBC's revival.
Why bring up Rev. Yi's response to the elders? Well, because some one said "God knows the plot between DCBC and Yi is not over yet." (Someone knows what God knows.) I wonder the same thing -- if every one here read Rev. Yi's letter the way Mrs. Buhler was expected to read the elders' letter.
What evidence do you have that Pastor Yi is going to set up another church near N. Dallas area?
Did he tell you? Did you ask him? If it's your speculation then you're entering the realm of gossip and false accusation.
still, if you are not pretty sure about building a church nearby, then what you said is gossip. Those pastors already said their resignations has nothing to do with Yi but the thing you just did.
People can speculate all they want -- in their own head. It's sad that self-claimed Christians don't know spreading their speculations and unverified accusations in ANY way, publicly or privately, is gossip and slander. Why are we surprised DCBC is in trouble when we have such Christians among us? May God have mercy on us and help us repent.
Will God listen to our prayers if we continue to gossip and slander? Will God grant DCBC revival if we continue to gossip and slander? Will God be glorified if we continue to gossip and slander? PLEASE think about it.
I agree that we need to reconcile and re-unit as a family of God. Let us forget the bad dream Mr. Yi have brought to us and build a stronger DCBC.
Can someone tell me why other pastors leave with Yi? I thought after Yi leaves we are all going to work hard to reconcile and rebuild our beloved church, they don't want to?
so Yi is not building church near N.Dallas and our pastors will not join him?
Please call up the pastors themselves if you have any questions. Please do not speculate or spread any unverified rumors.
Pastor Yi has resigned and if that wasn't enough, we're still rumoring and gossiping about him. He and his wife needs healing right now. Have mercy on him! Our church also needs healing and restoration, God have mercy on us!
Pastor Andy Ho wrote a resignation letter that clearly lays out reasons why he left. That may answer some of your questions, directly from him. I'm sure you can get the letter from a church member or deacon/elders.
Let's all pray for a true revival at DCBC and examine ourselves, starting with me. A beautiful piece by Nancy Leigh DeMoss I want to share.
The Heart God Revives
Proud people have a critical, fault-finding spirit; they look at everyone else’s faults with a microscope but their own with a telescope.
Broken people are compassionate; they can forgive much because they know how much they have been forgiven.
Proud people are self-righteous;
they look down on others.
Proud people have to prove that they are right.
Broken people are willing to yield the right to be right.
Proud people are unapproachable or defensive when criticized.
Broken people receive criticism with a humble, open spirit.
Proud people claim rights; they have a demanding spirit.
Broken people yield their rights; they have a meek spirit.
Broken people esteem all others better than themselves
Proud people have a subconscious feeling, “This ministry/church is privileged to have me and my gifts”; they think of what they can do for God.
Broken people’s heart attitude is, “I don’t deserve to have a part in any ministry”; they know that they have nothing to offer God except the life of Jesus flowing through their broken lives.
Proud people are quick to blame others.
Broken people accept personal responsibility and can see where they are wrong in a situation.
Proud people are concerned with being respectable, with what others think; they work to protect their own image and reputation
Broken people are concerned with being real; what matters to them is not what others think but what God knows; they are willing to die to their own reputation.
Proud people have a hard time saying, “I was wrong; will you please forgive me?”
Broken people are quick to admit failure and to seek forgiveness when necessary.
Proud people wait for the other to come and ask forgiveness when there is a misunderstanding or conflict in a relationship.
Broken people take the initiative to be reconciled when there is misunderstanding or conflict in relationships; they race to the cross; they see if they can get there first, no matter how wrong the other may have been.
Proud people are blind to their true heart condition.
Broken people walk in the light.
Proud people don’t think they have anything to repent of.
Broken people realize they have need of a continual heart attitude of repentance.
Proud people don’t think they need revival, but they are sure that everyone else does.
Broken people continually sense their need for a fresh encounter with God and for a fresh filling of His Holy Spirit.
弟兄姊妹們請把眼光放在神的身上,我們因為人所犯的罪已經身心俱疲了, 只要相信神未離開我們DCBC這個大家庭,再大的苦難我們都能倚靠神來度過,應該攜手一起解決現狀,用愛心說誠實話,聽聽神要我們怎麼做,別再互相批評攻擊彼此亦或做出說出會傷害任何人的事了吧! 願大家能有平安喜樂的心來事奉我們的阿爸父~
Wake up!! If you confront a thief, will the thief says "Yes, I'm a thief."
By the way Satan knows more Bible verses than everybody.
But I still believe God is in control! Things happen has His purpose, just be still.
Godly confrontation is a command from our Lord -- “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private" (Matthew 18:15a, NASB) The person being confronted might or might not admit their sin, but that is not our concern. We are not responsible for their response. We are responsible for our obedience to God's command. Godly confrontation is not to pick a fight and has to be done with love. If we do it the right way, he might listen and we will have won our brother. If he doesn't, we follow Matthew 18:16 and so on.
BTW, just because Satan might know more Bible verses, we really need to get into God's Word so we are not fooled.
It's funny how we talk about elders and deacons yet nobody seems to care (emotionally, physically or spiritually) about the pastors who gave up their high paying jobs, time with family, successful careers to obey their divine calling. People think they are just employees and it's just a job. To ALL pastoral staff this is a higher CALLING from God and they do this in obedience to the Lord not to please man. We put them on a pedestal but when they mess up we are quick to rip them to shreds. They are human and have feelings too.
I feel bad for the pastors at DCBC, they get very little love and support from the congregation. Just blame ... I doubt any pastor would want to come to this church after what has happened here.
Did you know this month is Pastor Appreciation month? It's ironic they are picking up and leaving, probably cause DCBC does a horrible job showing the people who spend hours in the word of God any appreciation whatsoever.
It is indeed very sad. Last Sunday was National Pastor Appreciation Day. We have wronged our pastors. I vividly remembered when we had been desperately and unsuccessfully searching for a senior pastor for 2 years, one person's question in a church forum about whether we as a church had inspected the ways we treated our pastors was ignored. We can not ignore it anymore. We need to beg God to help us see our mistakes and to repent. If we keep on rejecting the shepherds God sends us, I'm afraid God might just let the blind leading the blind.
Agree. We need to pray for the pastors that left, for healing and restoration. How they have been treated probably left mental scars that only God can heal.
For those who stay, we need to support them with encouragement, love and prayer.
Reminds me of the prophets in the Old Testament that were persecuted by the Israelites. God knows we will be held accountable for our sins. We, including me, need to repent and pray for God's mercy on DCBC.
We need to pray for a miracle that God would grant us a good shepherd. But as a church, we need to defend our pastors from gossip, rumors and slander. We need to love and guard their reputation. They're overworked and underpaid, unappreciated. Their reward will be great in heaven.
For those who imply that DCBC mistreated Yi, did you have sympathy when you saw how Pastor Lo and Minister OuYang been treated (...by Yi himself and his followers)?
诸位又红又专的小兵小将们，
你们干的好。凭着不屈不劳的精神，你们已经斗臭了主任牧師，也斗倒了多位牧師。胜利的荣耀圭以你们。是不是还很亢很奋呀？请再接再离连执事，长老们也斗－斗吧，斗完你们可当家乍主。
two wrongs doesn't make a right
It is sad and ironic to see someone to say that DCBC mistreated its pastors. It is Mr. Yi who cheated on his resume and numbers of members for the churches he previously served (caught on tape!), etc; and who was directly responsible for the resignation of Minister OuYang. It is DCBC that was mistreated! As for the other three pastors, they picked their sides and chose to disobey church’s leadership instead of leaving Yi’s issue to be resolved by DCBC elders. Nobody ever forced them to do this. How can you say DCBC mistreated them?
DId you hear the tape or own the tape? If not, stop spreading the rumors. Did some DCBC members mistreat Rev. Yi, those people knew better.
The tape is from the recording of the interview that DCBC had with Yi attended by all members. You can ask DCBC's secretary for a copy. The following are the facts:
From Elders’ letter
(3) In his formal interview with DCBC congregation, Pastor Yi misled members to believe he had been a pastor of a large church with over 350 attendants. But at the time he was there, all of the churches where Pastor Yi was involved in leadership were much smaller – all had less than 180 attendants. (This is based on bulletins given to us). None were close to the size of DCBC.
Pastor Yi’s reply to elders:
(3) During the interview, I never claimed that I pastored a larger church of 300+
congregation. I need the person who provided that faulty statement to come out and testify.
Words from the recording of the interview (based on David Tang’s translation from Chinese to English):
Minister Auyeung's question:
What are your church’s ministry experiences?
Describe the sizes of the churches and what were your primary responsibilities?
Yi’s responds:
I served at several churches. The first church I served at currently has about 700 people. There are three congregations. I was the deacon board chair for several terms. My responsibilities included: teaching Sunday school in all three languages, my responsibilities were related to fellowship and outreach and also in all three languages.
In the second church, I was their elder. I was in teaching, counseling, leading and discipleship. This church has about 400 people right now and again three languages.
My third church experience: I was the Mandarin pastor, about 350 people and also three languages. I had a really good relationship with the English pastor.
And right now my current church has a little bit over 100. We just have Mandarin and English and my English pastor also has really good relationship with me.
Is there any more word needed to be added?
To " 12 2011 3:51 AM "
Please specify details how DCBC mistreats Yi ?
Based on Yi's record, Rev. Ma's preaching, Elders' letter and the tape, he has been mistreating
DCBC, members and the Holy Christ.
I do not need red guards' revolution because there is no room in God's kingdom.
yes I heard the tape, his very own voice, his lies and all. That happened two years ago when he was overwhelmingly welcomed to this church. Did PJ say something about he voted against Yi coming on board two years ago? PJ knew it all along didn't he?
In response to: " It is Mr. Yi who cheated on his resume and numbers of members for the churches he previously served (caught on tape!), etc; and who was directly responsible for the resignation of Minister OuYang. "
Did I mention anyone's name? Don't read into my comment please. I said DCBC pastoral staff ALL OF THEM... we should probably start loving the pastors who are staying or we will lose them all.
弟兄姊妹,不用再跟那位弟兄或姊妹理論了.
證據確琢隨他去,時間會證明一切.祈禱上帝打開他們的眼睛.
It was Minister Ouyang that was mistreated, but not by DCBC, but by Yi with contract reduction from 3 years to 1 year, and accusation of not "submitting to senior pastor", etc. Minister Ouyang is within a couple of years of retirement and has served DCBC for 10 years. Who inflicted all the pains on her by forcing her to resign, sell her house and move to CA considering she was just a widow of a pastor who passed away too early?
I just felt extreamely sad that damage has been done to Minister Ouyang and sister's ministry in DCBC. Only God can provide healing and revival!
If you consider to follow Yi, think twice, his tendency to lie is one thing, but his habit to stab barb to innecent people is another, you don't know when he will turn it to you.
"(3) During the interview, I never claimed that I pastored a larger church of 300+
congregation. I need the person who provided that faulty statement to come out and testify."
Gomer said...
the pastors who gave up their high paying jobs, time with family, successful careers to obey their divine calling. People think they are just employees and it's just a job. To ALL pastoral staff this is a higher CALLING from God and they do this in obedience to the Lord not to please man.
On the contrary, I believe Pastor Yi spent extraordinary effort to please and impress man.
Pastor Yi exaggerated his credentials in his résumé and interview. In doing so, he might have degraded his position as a mere job seeker then, and as an employee of DCBC now. If Pastor Yi believed to answer a higher calling to come to DCBC, then he would not have to exaggerate and scheme his way to the placement, since God's grace and will would be sufficient for him to attain such a placement without him having to impress others.
Matthew 23:5-7 warns us:
Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
Too sad that DCBC has a mini version of cultural revolution going on right now. You can draw many parallels between the current crisis and the cultural revolution 40 years ago. Red guards persecuted their dear teachers, even their own fathers and mothers. Back then, they have every reason to believe that they were righteous and had done right things for the sake of the great nation. When they grew up, they realized how stupid they were by following Mao's campaign agenda. Same to DCBC brothers and sisters who started this campaign, 30 years later when they look back, they will realized that they have committed horrible sins to dishonor God's glory.
Sisters and Brothers: Please stop fight to each other. Let's pray God to revive DCBC. No matter Yi now, if we are careful, he is gone now. Let's focus present and future rather than in the past. This is sad situation, we probably lost at least 5 pastoral staffs in last couple months. Just pray God bring us together. I saw some speculation about Yi's future. Is this really matter? As long as he is not in DCBC, let God deal with him. Let us all pray God to watch DCBC not broken apart if DCBC still is God's home.
who is that troll that bring Mao to this conversation? stupidity at most.
The reason we still talk about Yi is because there are bros and sis' that still blame church for Yi's leaving. Before we can honestly reconcile, we need everyone to kknow the truth and nothing but the truth.
Anonymous said...
Too sad that DCBC has a mini version of cultural revolution going on right now. You can draw many parallels between the current crisis and the cultural revolution 40 years ago.
China's Cultural Revolution was a violent class struggle promoted by Mao Zedong so he could regain his political power. The forced resignation of Pastor Yi is neither violent, nor political driven; afterall, no one at DCBC has his or her eyes set on the senior pastor's positiion. Simply speaking, Pastor Yi's actions caused many at DCBC to loose trust of him being a Godly man and as our spritual leader.
Brothers and sisters,
Many are not disagreeing that it is best Pastor Yi leaves the church because many question his integrity. This is now done, so no need to bring up why we think he should leave.
However, as a church, we need to also do some self examination, whether the process of removing him was pure and pleasing to God. The end does not justify all means. And we've used man's ways to remove him instead of trusting God. Below are just some examples of taking matters into our own hands:
1. according to by-law, there needs to be a super-majority vote by elders/deacons to remove pastors before taking the vote to the congregation. It was designed to provide a buffer on removal of pastor because the matter of pastor removal is serious. However, some decide to take matters into their own hands and campaign against him by getting 1/5th congregational vote. Why can't we trust that God will use the elected deacons and elders to make the decision for us, as outlined in the by-law?
What's even worrisome, some who signed the petition wanted to take their name off the list after the fact (verified!) because they were not presented with the full picture of the reason for the signature.
2. The church called a "Revival" meeting for congregation when in fact, it was a sermon on why pastor Yi should not remain as Senior Pastor. A Revival meeting should be an evangelistic meeting, where we bring non-believers to church so they can come to know Christ. Imagine a non-believer sitting at our "Revival" meeting would be so confused? Why not call the meeting "sermon on why Pastor Yi should not be senior pastor."
Point is, YES, understand why Pastor Yi should resign. that is done. But what's our role now as a church Post Pastor Yi. We too need to Examine ourselves, did we sin also in the process? Could we show more love and grace? Did we take matters into human hands instead of trusting God with a fair process?
Reminds me of the story of David in 1 Samuel 24. David in this story is the example we should follow.
Although Saul was clearly evil and wanted to kill David, David did not lay his hand on Saul even when he had the opportunity to kill Saul and become king. David simply trusted God and not take matters in his own hands. What did David say?
v.5- Afterward David was conscience stricken for having cut off a corner of his (Saul's) robe. He said to his men :the Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord's anointed, or lay my hand on him; for he is the anointed of the Lord"
v. 12 - David said "May the Lord avenge the wrongs you have done to me, but my hand will not touch you. .... v 15 May the Lord be our judge and decide between us. May he consider my cause and uphold it; may he vindicate me by delivering me from your hand..
Saul said to David (v 17)" you are more righteous than I..."
David passed the test of trusting God and God rewarded David with the kingdom. We as a church, failed. We took matters into our own hands. Pastor Yi is gone. But what about us? We need to humbly admit our sins before the Lord before true revival can happen.
Anonymous said...
1...However, some decide to take matters into their own hands and campaign against him by getting 1/5th congregational vote. Why can't we trust that God will use the elected deacons and elders to make the decision for us, as outlined in the by-law?
Responding to the statement above, the petitioners, who numbered roughly 1/5 of active church members, did not remove Pastor Yi. The petitioners followed the procedure outlined in the church by-law, and requested a meeting for all DCBC members to determine whether Pastor Yi should continue serving as our senior pastor. That special meeting did not take place because Pastor Yi announced his resignation prior to the meeting. If the meeting had taken place, the decision would require 1/2 of the votes. Regarding your suggestion to let the elected deacons and elders to make the decision for us, that would not be feasible because the church leaders were accusing each other of wrongs. Because of the belief in the doctrine of priesthood of all believers, I believe God would permit the church members as a whole to make the correct decision.
Anonymous said...
2...The church called a "Revival" meeting for congregation when in fact, it was a sermon on why pastor Yi should not remain as Senior Pastor.
I agree with you, the meeting should not be called a "Revival" meeting. It was a meeting for Pastor Ma to present his finding and recommendations.
Can we ask pastor Hosanna to come back, even part time? David can run English ministry, and we'll find a new Cantonese pastor. God never stops blessing this church, we sheep won't be without shepard.
The reason why Rev. Yi resign is because Rev. Gene Getze advise him not to let the voting happen or the church will really split. For the sake of church, he resigned. So you think the calling of special meeting didn't do any damage?
Pastor Ma pointed out all the facts
and gave out recommandations according to God's words, that helped us understand right from wrong, that's the crucial part of revival.
"Regarding your suggestion to let the elected deacons and elders to make the decision for us, that would not be feasible because the church leaders were accusing each other of wrongs."
This is not a suggestion. The by-law specifically lays out the process for removal of pastor through a Super-Majority vote of deacons and elders before it goes through the congregational vote. It was specifically designed that way for a reason, because the matter of pastor removal is serious.
It's a simple vote of deacons and elders. Either you get the supermajority vote or you don't. Quite straightforward.
Did the vote from deacons/elders ever take place? NO. Why do you say it's not feasible if the matter was never brought to the deacons for voting?
But instead, we, as a church, tried to circumvent that process by directly petitioning for 1/5th members signatures to bring the vote directly to congregation, by-passing our leaders.
This is man's own device and scheme. Thankfully, Pastor Yi resigned before the vote because that vote would probably caused deeper division and even a split for our church.
I know people love the church and thought it was best we brought the vote directly to members. But as a result of trying to take matters into our own hands, bypassing a fair procedure, the effort has caused more division (thankfully the vote never occured, which would've caused more damage).
This is not to point fingers at people. This is to demonstrate that our ways have not been pure, tainted by man's schemes and devices. I pray we will not harden our hearts but examine it, starting with me. If we truly repent, call sin as it is, God will forgive us and grant us unity and restoration.
May God bless HIS church and have mercy on HIS sheep.
So you credited him for resigning before the votes? He should've resigned five months ago when his first lie surfaced.
1. First of all, Yi is not Saul. Saul was truly ordained by God when he first became the king while Yi cheated his way to DCBC. When the fact he falsified his resume was exposed, he lost his legitimacy of being senior pastor.
2. Yi was given the opportunity to leave quietly without congregation’s knowing his resume issue. Instead he called member meeting (without elder’s consent) and tried to get sympathy from congregation to stay, which resulted in splitting the members. He picked this way to fight for his power in direct disobey to DCBC’s leadership. Afterwards, he repeatedly refused to resign from elders’ request, counting on ½ of the members or deacons to support him.
3. Trusting God doesn’t mean doing nothing. When things turned out to be so clear, action needs to be taken to prevent further damage. How do you know that the letter signed by 117 members is not from God? Do you think Yi would go away without the special congregation meeting was to be held?
4. Revival meeting is not for non-believers. For some of us, this was truly a revival meeting since we didn’t think the situation was so serious. As Rev. Ma pointed out, we had a wolf and weeds among us that needed to be cleansed.
What makes you think the special vote can take place without deaconboard's approval? Will Yi and his people let it happen?
Anonymous said...
The reason why Rev. Yi resign is because Rev. Gene Getze advise him not to let the voting happen or the church will really split. For the sake of church, he resigned. So you think the calling of special meeting didn't do any damage?
For the sake of any church, a pastor should not misstate the résumé or interview, which might cause some to loose their trust.
For the sake of any church, a pastor who is caught misstating the résumé should work hard to regain the lost trust, rather than margin the mistake and blame others.
And finally for the sake of any church, a pastor who is caught misstating on the résumé and is unable to regain the lost trust in a timely matter, RESIGN.
1. Correct that Yi is not Saul, but Saul was worse than Yi. His heart was so evil that he pursued to kill David. Yi was not ordained at DCBC. Unless you can verify that Yi cheated his way to being ordained as a pastor. Like David respected Saul's position, Yi's position as pastor still needs to be respected, even if we have lost respect for the person. One way to respect the position is to have a fair removal of him.
2. I agree with you on this point. Yi should've submitted to the elders and resigned at that time and Yi should have trusted God will vindicate him if he was not wrong.
3. Yes, sometimes action is required. But sometimes, trusting God is also being still and waiting upon Him and His timing. Why do I think the petition is not from God? I'm not God, but God said to judge by its fruit. Because the fruit of the action caused more division in the church, not unity. Also, some was asked to sign without being provided the full picture, whether intentionally or not.
4. Definition of revival meeting on wikipedia: A revival meeting (or "gospel crusade") is a series of Christian religious services held in order to inspire active members of a church body and to gain new converts.
So Revival meeting is for BOTH members and a means to gain new converts (aka, non believers).
Speaking with some members (verified!) they felt deceived to come thinking it is a revival meeting. Call it as it is: "Sermon on why pastor Yi should not be pastor of DCBC."
Conclusion: I'm not disagreeing that there were things Pastor Yi could've done earlier to prevent division at DCBC. However, our response was also not pure and caused further division. The latter is what we are held responsible for and we should humbly acknowledge our sins before the Lord.
The fruit of the "Revival" meeting was further division in the church and lost of trust in leaders who put that together.
If it were from the Lord, it would have brought unity and reconciliation, not dissension and mistrust.
I agree with the person upstairs in that we all have sinned. There are some unholy acts (by both the supporters and detractors) during the process. It's difficult to keep our purity under such a circumstance.
However, about whether the petition is not from God, I am not as sure as you do. We are protestants, and we protest against the authority whose actions or agendas do not conform to what we learned from the bible. Whether such a protest caused the church to split than what it already has is debatable. However, I believe Pastor Buhler's accusations against other church leaders during last Sunday's worship had brought more division among us.
Anonymous said...
The fruit of the "Revival" meeting was further division in the church and lost of trust in leaders who put that together.
If it were from the Lord, it would have brought unity and reconciliation, not dissension and mistrust.
By the same reasoning, if Pastor Yi was sent to us from the Lord, he would have brought unity and reconciliation, not dissension and mistrust. And as evident in DCBC's diminishing unity and reconciliation, Pastor Yi was not sent to us from the Lord. Would you say neither the meeting nor the pastor is from the Lord?
Rev Yi did try to solve the disagreement between him and some leaders but the did not give him any chance. You can saw it by the ones who would not go inside the mandarin worship.
People didn't go inside the Mandarin worship was because Yi has no credential to be the senior pastor at DCBC. He also has no qualification to teach us God's word due to his own behaviors.
Regarding Pastor Yi entering the church. Yes, his mistake misled the search committee and as a result it has caused division.
However, let's examine ourselves as well. Was the search committee upfront with the members that they "waived" certain criterias for the senior pastor position? They waived his years of experience and diploma. Were we clearly made aware that he did not meet the criterias of the senior pastor when they recommended him as senior pastor? Could our church also have contributed to this mess by forcing his way into DCBC as well?
What is done is done. Not to point fingers but a lesson learned that we need to be prayerful when making big decisions such as hiring and removing pastors. There's a tendency to take matters into our own hands and God is not pleased. Pastor Yi will be held accountable if God finds fault in him. Question is, are we humble to admit that we also have not been above reproach in our process to remove him. This is what we are held accountable for. If we love this church, we will repent and ask the Lord to remove His judgment and bless us with unity and restoration.
Why are you keep support him, we do not want a pastor
With cheating habit, is it ok with you??? I do wish he has ability to build a church then you can has a place to go.
Some people just have to find fault with the church to make it even. Just let them, if that can make them feel better.
I agree with the anonymous posting on October 12, 2011 3:19 PM, except "They waived his years of experience and diploma". I believe it was the degree the committee had waived, not diploma.
I would like to echo the person who posted that message's call to:
repent and ask the Lord to remove His judgment and bless us with unity and restoration.
"Why are you keep support him"
I'm not supporting Pastor Yi. I already said he too is at fault, but God will hold him accountable. He is gone from DCBC. But God will also hold us accountable for our sins.
Can you say with all honesty that our process has been PURE and ABOVE REPROACH?
I love the church and want to see His bride purified and blessed. When we harden our hearts and do not recognize our own sin, God is not pleased.
Unrepentant hearts is harmful for the church. With all due respect, I do not mean to be harsh. But if you cannot admit we too have sinned, perhaps you should consider leaving so the church can be forgiven and blessed by God.
Wow, we are kicking people who disagree out now!?
When someone say "I know his resume misled, but..." then spent hundreds of words to find fault with process details, you know he is still bitter. Didn't Bible say we shouldn't have two scales? Let's put these two things on the same scale. If Yi deserve to leave, everything else shouldn't matter at all.
I'm not bitter. I believe it was God's will for Pastor Yi to leave and have peace about that outcome. This is about us humbling ourselves, letting go of our pride and recognizing our own sins. Starting with me.
With all due respect forgive me if I was too harsh with my words. But unrepentant hearts is a hindrance to blessing.
From all the posts from two sides, I am glad to see that it appears one common ground has been reached now, that is Yi's leaving is good for the church.
As far as search committee is concerned, I am not clear on how the process works and what is the criteria to look for senior pastor. I don't believe these have been made public, which is fine with me and as a regular member, I don't necessarily have to know the details. For example, if criteria says we need a pastor to have 15 years of experience, but if a pastor only has about 10 years experience, do we reject him based on this? But if we accept him, does this count as "lowering" criteria? For education, Elder Lee stated the bottom line it needs to come from accredited schools, which Yi's falsified resume met the criteria. If you call thses as sins, I don't think your logic works.
Anyway, I think we need to keep our emtions on check and start to build on this common ground and start to heal and reconcile.
DCBC is our church and nobody has the right to ask anybody to leave.
Anonymous said...
If Yi deserve to leave, everything else shouldn't matter at all.
Pastor Yi should leave, and will leave by the end of this month. But that should not prevent us from re-examine ourselves. If we erred, then we should repent and ask for His forgiveness.
I signed the petition for the meeting to decide on Pastor Yi's removal, but I cannot say with all certainty that the process has been pure and above reproach, since the petition though permitted by the church by-law, bypassed the normal dismissal process. We need to humble ourselves, for the challenge ahead of us is one of reconciliation.
Lesson learned. Next time the search committee will have to let the congregation to see the resume before they can vote. Very likely we have to verify everything on the resume and ask for reference too. Kind of sad when think about it.
And work on removal procedure too, only praying that we will never have to use it again.
To pastor/brother Yi,
Unless you lower the standard all together in your future church hiring of pastoral stuff, it is my sincere prayer that you will continue finishing diploma at an accredit seminary. It is not only for your own good but also for the benefits of your future church members. Not sure if you have noticed there is a pattern (I called it a curse) that you can not stay in a church for a longer time. I will continue praying for you.
To English pastors who are leaving DCBC,
It is my sincere prayers that you have prayed hard and clearly know GOD want you to leave the church. Otherwise this will become a curse to follow you in your future ministry. This curse then is not from GOD but from your own willingness to be overtaken by old you/flesh now. On the other hand, if you have prayed hard and GOD clearly lead you to this path then I will continue pray for you in your future ministry.
I commend this blogs to defend what is right and what is wrong.
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
A bit harsh bro, I know you mean well, but the language is not quite appropriate imho.
I am curious to know what kind of reasons that these three pastors have given on their resignation letters. It seems to me that Andy's "hug", Mrs. Bulher's "crap" calling and PJ's preaching on "Slander" have totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members. I feel sorry for them, but pastors are human's anyway, sometime may not see things as clearly as laypersons.
Anonymous said...
"I am curious to know what kind of reasons that these three pastors have given on their resignation letters."
Posting on this blog won't help you get the answer, if that is really what you are looking for. Speak to them directly, and they will let you know. Re: Andy Ho, he wrote his reasons clearly in his resignation letter, so no need to speculate.
Anonymous said...
"It seems to me that Andy's "hug", ...totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members."
Why would a hug destroy relationship with DCBC? God said to love our enemies and forgive those who have wronged us. Ask P. Andy if you question his motive with his hug.
Anonymous said...
"Mrs. Bulher's "crap" calling"
She already apologized. If you still have issue, speak with her directly.
Anonymous said...
"PJ's preaching on "Slander" have totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members."
Speak with PJ directly if you have an issue.
Anonymous said...
"I feel sorry for them, but pastors are human's anyway, sometime may not see things as clearly as laypersons."
Correct, they are humans and we need to pray for them. As for you, you are so humble that you can see more clearly than the pastors.
Brothers and sisters,
Let us come humbly together as the body of Christ before the Lord to pray for our church, not to blame one another. Let us be wise with our words.
James 4:6
“God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”
Anonymous said...
"I am curious to know what kind of reasons that these three pastors have given on their resignation letters. It seems to me that Andy's "hug", Mrs. Bulher's "crap" calling and PJ's preaching on "Slander" have totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members."
If you are really curious, you should go ask them directly instead of speculating. PJ and pastor B read their letters to the congregation.
How did you come to the conclusion that something "have totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members"? Is it the only reason you could imagine for a pastor to resign?
Anonymous said...
"She already apologized. If you still have issue, speak with her directly. "
It is amazning, even funny, to see this logic was used again and again. I made a mistake and I apologized, everything is fine and no consequence. I wished you could have come up with a better excuse. You are either too naive or chose to close your eyes and not to see facts.
Anonymous said...
"As for you, you are so humble that you can see more clearly than the pastors."
At least I am not on the side of cheaters and liars.
Anonymous who said:
"At least I am not on the side of cheaters and liars."
May the Lord open your spiritual eyes.
Luke 18
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Thank you for you Bible verses, which are some of my favorite too. But unfortunately what these verses represented is not applied here. Today, what DCBC is dealing with is just one person who had some issues (refer to Elders's letter) and happened to be DCBC's senior pastor. After observing and studying carefully myself, I believe what Elders stated is true and right, upon which I chose to stand. This doesn't mean I declared myself more righteous than you or than anybody for that matter. I just chose to be on the right side. If you think you are right, you are welcome to state your reasoning.
Anonymous said:
"I made a mistake and I apologized, everything is fine and no consequence. I wished you could have come up with a better excuse. You are either too naive or chose to close your eyes and not to see facts."
Yes, I agree there are consequences. But your response of badmouthing ministers is not the appropriate response.
Anonymous said:
"At least I am not on the side of cheaters and liars."
This is not about taking sides. We agree it is the Lord's will Pastor Yi leaves the church. This is about humbling ourselves and asking the Lord to forgive us because we too have not been pure in the process.
Your words are divisive and not helping the unity of the body. Please be careful and wise with what you say. May the Lord have mercy on you.
Anonymous said...
"It is amazning, even funny, to see this logic was used again and again. I made a mistake and I apologized, everything is fine and no consequence. I wished you could have come up with a better excuse. You are either too naive or chose to close your eyes and not to see facts."
She probably sinned. But if apology is not enough, what consequences do you want for someone who displayed her emotions inappropriately? Sue her? After all, you are blessed to be in a free country where every one is free to display their emotions.
Let's see what consequences will there be for someone who falsely accused an ordained minister.
Anonymous said:
"But your response of badmouthing ministers is not the appropriate response."
All I said is what actually happened and I expressed my humble opinion on the consequence brought by what these pastors did -that is: they might have damaged their relationship with DCBC. Where did I badmouth ministers? Please use your fact and don't just accuse people without ground.
Should I interpret it as your humbling down when you just went from "totally destroyed their relationships with DCBC and her most members" to "they might have damaged their relationship with DCBC"? ;-)
What is the latest development now? Common sense tells me that after these pastors gave out everything to fight for Yi only found out they were betrayed by his serious wrongdoings, they'd at least would apologize to the congregation that they unintentionly misled, and to those who they unintentionaly misaccused, then maybe we'll reconcile by the mercy of our Lord. If they really have to leave, we wish them well. Honestly, I respect their reasons to leave, but why do they have to leave at the very same time with Yi? knowing he betrayed not only everybody but specifically themselves? that doesn't look like what God's servant should have done. (Let's gang up on DCBC and see what they can do without us? no English and Cantonese pastors... )
Anonymous said...
"She probably sinned. But if apology is not enough, what consequences do you want for someone who displayed her emotions inappropriately? Sue her? After all, you are blessed to be in a free country where every one is free to display their emotions.
Let's see what consequences will there be for someone who falsely accused an ordained minister. "
Anyone with a clear mind can see a pattern here. If you dared to point out a mistake being made (I didn't even use "sin"), then you are "slandering and falsely accusing" and serious consequence will be upon you. You can trace this logic all the way back to the sermon that some preacher did a few month back. I am glad you are not God, so quit acting like you know tomorrow.
Anonymous asked:
"Where did I badmouth ministers?"
Based on you calling them "cheaters and liars".
Please my brother/sister. I love you dearly and for your sake, please be careful with your words. The Lord is not pleased.
Ask ourselves the following. Are our words peace-loving, considerate, full of mercy...
James 3:17-18 "But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness
Anonymous said...
"Anyone with a clear mind can see a pattern here. If you dared to point out a mistake being made (I didn't even use "sin"), then you are "slandering and falsely accusing" and serious consequence will be upon you. You can trace this logic all the way back to the sermon that some preacher did a few month back. I am glad you are not God, so quit acting like you know tomorrow."
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear. I didn't say you called it a sin. I think she probably sinned. I was not talking about you either when I mentioned "someone who falsely accused an ordained minister." -- I don't think Mrs. Bulher is an ordained minister.
"after these pastors gave out everything to fight for Yi only found out they were betrayed by his serious wrongdoings, they'd at least would apologize to the congregation that they unintentionly misled, and to those who they unintentionaly misaccused, then maybe we'll reconcile by the mercy of our Lord. If they really have to leave, we wish them well."
"Honestly, I respect their reasons to leave, but why do they have to leave at the very same time with Yi? knowing he betrayed not only everybody but specifically themselves? that doesn't look like what God's servant should have done. (Let's gang up on DCBC and see what they can do without us? no English and Cantonese pastors... )"
Anonymous said:
"Based on you calling them "cheaters and liars". "
I am sorry if I misled you thought like this, but I actually intended to speak in a general way, not pointing to particular persons, but to certain things that have been done. I should have said "I am not on the side of cheating and lying". I apologize for this honest mistake.
Thank you my brother/sister for humbly admitting your mistake. You don't have to apologize to me but seek God's forgiveness instead. The Lord sees the heart and we're ultimately accountable to Him. If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us.
This is the devil's blog. WHOEVER STARTED THIS BLOG TAKE IT DOWN...
To Anynymous Oct 17 6:27 pm
How do you know this is a devil blog? Prove it!
Are you God?
this is a discussion blog for your info....
Not sure whether you can call it 'devil blog' or not. Calling it '大字报' should match its original purpose.
According to 维基百科:
大字报是张贴于墙壁的大字书写的壁报，是1950年代至1970年代末、1980年代的流行于中国大陆的言语—书写形式；是“大鸣、大放、大字报、大辩论”的“四大”之一。它既是一种言语—书写形式，却又不单纯是言语—书写方式，更是一种政治工具，与当时频繁政治运动相关联的阶级斗争、政治暴力的实现方式。 :)
An observation came up when I read through this blog...
A lot of people use the word "Reconcile" here. But if "Reconciliation" is truely what we seek at the very beginning, why are we in this mess?
James Cheng wrote a farewell letter to 90+ church members. On one hand, I appreciate his efforts to inform us; on the other hand, I felt that my privacy was compromised. I provided my e-mail address to the church for the purpose of “business” use only, not for his “personal” use. In a way, his action is stealing.
He was also the previous chair of the deacon board. During his term, he approved Mr. Yi’s request to submit his year end appreciation check as a part of his housing allowance income. Therefore, Mr. Yi does not have to pay income taxes on that. If someone reports this to the IRS, not only Mr. Yi will be punished for his cheating, DCBC may also lose its tax exemption privilege.
Therefore, if he really loved the church as he had said in his letter, I am recommending him to prepare another letter for the church to indicate that the housing allowance issue was all his idea and the church was not a part of it.
However, I do not think he will do it.
For people considering leaving because of DCBC's "leadership problems", now you have one less reason to leave. You have Mr. Cheng as chair of deacon board that did illegal things, and you have those shephards that put their ego before their sheep, that part of leadership will be gone too. can't say it's not good news.
If you really love your wife, you don't say " I am divorcing you because I love you". You say " let's work hard to make our marriage work".
I heard this Mr. Cheng not only did the thing as the above brother/sister pointed out, he also secretly tried to change Mr. Yi's housing allowance from DCBC's traditional 40% of salary to 70% without deacon board's approval. For those who are not familiar with housing allowance, here is a brief definition:
"A housing allowance is basically payments made by the church to the minister for the minister's estimated housing expenses."
Although I don't know how much Mr. Yi got paid, does anyone believe he spends 70% of his salary on his house expenses?
I was one of the recipients on Mr. Cheng's farewell email although we never knew each other personally (just like strangers if we met on street). I not only doubted his motivation to send out this letter to so many people (just to say goodbye?), many of who may be like me and never knew him personally, but also can see a lot of false accusations on DCBC. For example, "Unauthorized investigation of Pastor Yi's past"? Didn't DCBC have the right to check the correctness of its senior pastor's resume? I just wished DCBC had done this much earlier and thoroughly.
For those who are thinking of leaving DCBC, I would like you to think deeply in your hearts. If this is what God convinces you to do, then nobody can stop you, but please, please just do all of us a big favor: leave quitely or send your farewell email to the only persons you know, but don't announce it to the whole world, which can only cause more disturbance and division and mislead those who may not know all the details on what had happened. But if you act out of your own flesh or ego, then you need to prepare to answer to God eventually.
Could someone post Mr. Cheng Farewell letter? I did not get one, I don't know him anyway
After seeing this blog and all these resentments, I never want to go back to this Church again.
神不是吩咐我們在這個世界上應該守法嗎? 神要我們除惡務盡，信靠神，什麼都不要做，而順服神，就得徹底、不斷的在對付不潔淨和這世界對靈性污穢的侵襲; 而造就門徒的牧師應該教導和實踐。不守法的人，不留也吧!
"After seeing this blog and all these resentments, I never want to go back to this Church again."
It's really up to you, but my suggestion is to pray God for your spiritual future, not making decisions based on other people's influence. If you follow people, you'll be always disappointed no matter where you go.
DCBC經歷了前所未有的劫難，但仍值得慶幸的是守住了神的真理，沒有向世人妥協，讓我們同心建立教會，為主做光做鹽.
“It is amazing, even funny, to see this logic was used again and again. I made a mistake and I apologized, everything is fine and no consequence. I wished you could have come up with a better excuse. You are either too naive or chose to close your eyes and not to see facts.”
Dear Anonymous,
I’m sorry that you think that it was logic. The fact is it is the Lord’s commands to His disciples and to all who loves Him. If we are called to be “naïve” for following His commands then I’m one of those whom you have called “naive” and proud to be labeled as such. The following are a few verses that you may want to meditate on.
Matthew 18: 21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Luke 17: 3-4
“… “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. ”
“At least I am not on the side of cheaters and liars.”
Romans 3:23- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Can you honestly say that you are equally "naive" toward those who are on the opposit side? Do you equally "love" and "forgive", say, the search committe? Or you chose to forgive Yi and PJ that betrayed their followers and nit pick the procedure flaw that can happen to any honest person?
I am sorry to let you know that this is not the question for you to ask and neither is one I need to answer for my Lord Jesus Christ knows my heart. I answer to Him and Him alone.
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
From your comment, I feel that you are hurt by your so called, "their betrayal". Have you conveyed as how much you have been hurt to them face to face?
Blessings.
I don't care what you really think, I just want to remind you that before you convinently through Bible to your fellow bro and sis, read it tto yourself first.
To MTC:
We forgave Mr. Yi as a brother who made mistakes (honest or not) or even deliberately exaggerated the sizes of the churches he previously pastored (caught on tape, see a previous post). But was he qualified for the senior pastor any more? We all tell our kids to work hard and don't cheat on exams, but what can we say if they turn around and say even senior pastor cheated on his resume and interview? A senior pastor is someone who should hold high moral standards. I think Mr. Yi has lost credibility and trust of DCBC.
Brothers and sisters,
I also received James' farewell letter. I believe his letter is to help us see the pattern of our church over 26 years he has been here so that we can self examine ourselves as a church. I think one point from his letter we should humbly consider as a church is the following:
" It (the church) was used and abused by A FEW using His body to achieve their objective...The secular tactics deployed were instigated by some leaders..."
I know many of us here have respect for previous pastors like pastor Hosanna (many wants him back to help DCBC). He left quietly because he didn’t want to cause any division. But has anyone had a heart to heart talk with him about what it is at DCBC that made him leave? I HAVE. (verified). And yes, The Lord called him back to missions but that is only PART of the story.
All I need to say is based on my conversation with Pastor Hosanna, there is truth in James' letter and he is exposing the sin of our church that has caused many good pastors to leave.
My point is not to defend Pastor Yi. I believe he should leave because whether intentionally or not, his resume mistake has caused many to disrespect him. However, we as a church have not learned our lesson. The same FEW people have been instigators of pastors leaving in the past. I pray that these few will realize that they have contributed to the division in this church by taking matters into their own hands. I will not name them, but God knows who they are and they will be held accountable. I am not bitter against them, but I pray for the Lord's mercy and forgiveness on them and I pray they will change their ways so that DCBC can flourish and grow.
to anonymous who said:
"I heard this Mr. Cheng not only did the thing as the above brother/sister pointed out, he also secretly tried to change Mr. Yi's housing allowance from DCBC's traditional 40% of salary to 70% without deacon board's approval."
Did you ask Mr. Cheng directly and allow him to explain? If not, you are in the realm of speculation and gossip.
to anonymous who said:
"Although I don't know how much Mr. Yi got paid, does anyone believe he spends 70% of his salary on his house expenses?"
If you do NOT KNOW how much Mr. Yi got paid and how much he spends on his house, then how do you know that he does NOT in fact spend 70% of his salary on house expenses? Please ask him directly instead of speculating.
I also read Cheng's letter, beautiful but phony.
"It (the church) was used and abused by A FEW using His body to achieve their objective...The secular tactics deployed were instigated by some leaders..."
I thought he was talking about himself! He is/was part of DCBC leadership isn't he? He is responsible for why we are in this mess now. it's easy for him to blame other people and take off.
Our "leadership" is nowhere perfect, it's good time for us to use "love" and 'forgiving" to embrass each other, work together to rebuild our beloved home. No matter what you say, choosing to leave with Yi says everything about real you.
By puting Pastor Hosana and Yi in one sentence you're really insulting our beloved Pastor Ho. I love senior Pastor Ho and senior pastor Lin, and I am sure our "leadership" has learned lesson from previous mistake. Yi is totally out of their league, don't try to mix them together.
Our church in this critical moment, I wonder why Ondat & William Luo did a survey to some of our brothers and sisters. Do they get permission from Elders, Deacon Board Chairman? Did they remember they are DCBC leadership? Base on their church leadership position, it's not appropriate to do this. It'll mislead brothers and sisters. Do they want to destroy church deeply? I wonder what goals they are looking for. Why they use our personal email to spread it out? It is unapproiate, especially they are the leadership. At the present time, we have to keep quiet, repect and pray together to ask God's gudience, not from human beings (Ondat & William's thought). They look like in bible times-Judges, everyone think that himself is a king, do whatever he wants. We have to remember, this is a church, not a secular world. Ondat thought himself is a top of the leader at DCBC, no control. He should submit and respect Elders, chairman of deacon board.
I also got the survey from Mr.Luo, which I thought came from DCBC leaderships. But after confirmation with some DCBC leaders, it was found out he wasn’t authorized to do so at all. I would question and seek the motivation of this survey before I even decide to take it not.
Do you see a spreading trend of hatred/blame here?
Pastor Yi - PJ - Buhler ->Andy - Mrs.Buhler - Br. James, and now comes to Br. Ondat and William,
eventually will cascades down to all brothers and sisters with guts to stand up to say/do something differently,
only with the exception of those people (i.e. elders, some leaders and their followers).
As this trend goes on, DCBC future is really worrisome.
To: "I also got the survey from Mr.Luo, which I thought came from DCBC leaderships. But after confirmation with some DCBC leaders, it was found out he wasn’t authorized to do so at all."
What leaders are you confirming with? It was discussed in the last deacon board meeting. Ondat and William are the language deacons so it's within their responsibility.
I wonder why James Cheng announced to the public. He suppose leave church quietly if he already made a decision. He isn't on any position at church, he doesn't need to let everybody knows. He did it on purpose. I pray to God have mercy to our church. Yi's follower are not doing at this moment, they did it at the beginning. Now they want to be a leader at DCBC. They counldn't define white or black, they only focus to human beings, not God. We have to pray for them and let holy spirit guide them.
" It was discussed in the last deacon board meeting. Ondat and William are the language deacons so it's within their responsibility. "
So it was just discussed? Did it get approved by whole deacon board and by elders? If you want to do survey in the name of DCBC's leadership, don't you need to get permssion first? If not, then use your own name only, don't hijack the leadership's name.
"Do you see a spreading trend of hatred/blame here?
Pastor Yi - PJ - Buhler ->Andy - Mrs.Buhler - Br. James, and now comes to Br. Ondat and William,"
It's not about their names, it's about what they have contributed to church's division, that's the only one thing they have in common here. Not hatred or blame, just remind people not to ignore the truth, nor bend the truth to defend their own ego.
I remember those good old days when we have something to post in the church we need signature from pastors or elders. Two days ago when I submitted the survey it never come to my mind that it can be unauthorized. I don't blame people questioning it,since we have experienced their unauthorized distribution before. There are no rules in this house anymore, people do whatever they want.
Respond to "It was discussed in the last deacon board meeting. Ondat and William are the language deacons so it's within their responsibility. "
I don't you know what you are talking about.. Every deacon has their own responsibility but they have to abide with the church rules ad policies ..
For Example, if you are the Finance Deacon, can you just purchase/expense something without The Deacon Board approval?
Use your common sense to justify these two Deacon's Action.
They are causing church division, if they want to leave, just leave and don't 'cause any more trouble. If they like to stay, then follow the majority rule. it is simple ...
Could you more specified about "unauthorized distribution"?
Go back to read more carefully: it's stated DCBC "國語事工" 教會現狀問卷表. Would you verified with Elders instead of some "leaders"?
“We all tell our kids to work hard and don't cheat on exams, but what can we say if they turn around and say even senior pastor cheated on his resume and interview?”
Thank you for bringing up this point and thank you for teaching our next generation to work hard and be honest. However, all of us will stumble and fall one way or another living in this temporary world. We struggle to do “good” but many times we failed. The apostle Paul had the same experience when he said in Romans 7:19, “For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” Praise be unto God for we have been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Moreover, we have received one blessing after another from the fullness of His grace. This is a precious lesson we can teach our children about God’s grace and mercy to equip them in living their life. So, when they stumble, they are able to look upon the Lord for His mercy and grace.
John 1:16-17 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:23-24” for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus”.
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