I am posting here because I love DCBC and am saddened to see what is happening there now. When I first started coming to DCBC, I was welcomed warmly by a congregation that was so dynamic and full of the Spirit of God. Now all I see is a church divided!
I no longer see the church growing, but in fact I am seeing signs that it is dying. Attendance at the Wednesday night prayer meeting is dwindling and the Summer Friday night youth program has been cancelled.
It seems like things have started to go downhill since James Yi started. Does anyone else share my feelings?
571 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 571 of 571This is still on DCBC website:
教牧同工簡介
伊慶荔牧師--主任牧師
伊慶荔牧師自2009年十月起即榮任為本教會之主任牧師；伊牧師在加入本教會以前，曾牧養過兩間中國教會；伊牧師亦曾就讀於明尼蘇達州明尼愛普勒斯市之中央浸信會神學院。...
These statements are found to be inaccurate and lies. We have the obligation to remove them immediately.
to anonymous who said:
"they have to abide with the church rules ad policies"
Where in the church by-law that deacons are not allowed to take a survey? Please clarify you accusation that they are not abiding by church "rules and policies"
To anonymous who said:
"They are causing church division,"
They're simply taking a survey of the congregation for feedback. This helps provide the pulse of the congregation. On what basis are you ACCUSING them of dividing the church?
To anonymous who said:
"if they want to leave, just leave and don't 'cause any more trouble."
WHO ARE YOU to kick out people out of our church?
PLEASE BE CAREFUL with our words and unless we have carefully provide CLEAR BASIS, we should be careful to not ruin people's reputation on this blog. May the Lord have mercy on us!!
Brothers and sisters,
Before writing on this blog, please consider Ephesians 4:29-32:
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
to anonymous who said:
"they have to abide with the church rules ad policies"
Where in the church by-law that deacons are not allowed to take a survey? Please clarify you accusation that they are not abiding by church "rules and policies"
My respond to You:
it is just common sense, if you do not have common sense, just be it...
any actions taken by any church member using church name have to be approved by the deacon board.. it is just simple and clear, if you don't understand, just go to church and ask other deacon..
To anonymous who said:
"They are causing church division,"
They're simply taking a survey of the congregation for feedback. This helps provide the pulse of the congregation. On what basis are you ACCUSING them of dividing the church?
my respond to you:
Taking survey doesn't solve the problem...
To anonymous who said:
"if they want to leave, just leave and don't 'cause any more trouble."
WHO ARE YOU to kick out people out of our church?
my respond to you:
I am not kicking you out of the church, but if you are not happy, it is better for you to transfer your membership to another church than staying and causing trouble to the already divided church, it is time to move on...
PLEASE BE CAREFUL with our words and unless we have carefully provide CLEAR BASIS, we should be careful to not ruin people's reputation on this blog. May the Lord have mercy on us!!
my respond to you:
you should be careful of your own own word too... noboby is trying to ruin other people reputations
this is a discussion blog... trying to discuss what's going on and trying to express our opinion....
October 27, 2011 5:54 PM
to anonymous who said:
"they have to abide with the church rules ad policies..." then you said:
"it is just common sense.."
My response: You said they are rules and policies and now you are changing your mind and saying it's "common sense". Is it because you cannot find the "rules and policies"?
Common sense tells me that a survey is an effective way to communicate and provide feedback because the elders' and deacons' time is precious and it is impossible to meet with every person. This is common sense. If you don't understand this, then so be it.
Anonymous said:
"Taking the survey doesn't solve the problem."
My response: I respectfully disagree. The elders and deacons represent the congregation and thus a survey is an orderly way for the congregation to communicate their thoughts to their representative. A good representative hears the voice of the people and prayerfully consider them when making decisions.
To anonymous who said:
"it is better for you to transfer your membership to another church than staying and causing trouble to the already divided church"
My response to you: You should take your own advice yourself. You are the one causing more trouble for the church by falsely accusing the deacons of dividing the church.
To anonymous who said:
"noboby is trying to ruin other people reputations"
My response to you: You have ruined people's reputation when you falsely accuse them of dividing the church by saying, "They are causing church division."
To anonymous who said:
"this is a discussion blog... trying to discuss what's going on and trying to express our opinion....
My response to you: your opinion has turned into false accusations without basis. False accusations are tools of the evil one.
Again I ask you respectfully, on what basis do you charge these deacons of this statement: "They are causing church division."
If you have none, then you have made false accusation.
Guys, allow me to be your peacemaker for once. You both are right: one side believes a survey can help church moving to right direction; the other side thinks a proper procedure cann't be ignored. These two opinions don't have to be mutually exclusive, instead, if we can embrace each other's good idea we are good to go.. to rebuild our beloved spiritual home together. We are a bit sensitive now because our wound is still fresh, and we still have issues that might take sometime to iron out. Since we have survived the worst "earthquake", we definitely don't want to be buried by series small inevitable "aftershocks". So we need to look out for each other brothers and sisters!
Here are my two cents on this survey:
First of all, this survey doesn’t come from DCBC leadership (elders plus the whole deacon board), and it isn’t even authorized by DCBC leadership, plain and simple.
Secondly, we all knew who the survey organizers came from, they are firm supporters for Mr. Yi. So people couldn’t help but wondering the motivation of this survey.
Thirdly, is there any hidden agenda in this survey? For example, is there any connection between some groups of people who are calling elders to resign and this survey? We all know how accurate or inaccurate this kind of anonymous survey can be and the results can easily be abused and misused to further divide the church. This is just my speculation and I hope it won’t happen, but going through so many things, and if this does happen, we need to prepare for it. You fooled me once (like the so called “honest mistakes”), shame on you, you fooled me twice, shame on me.
In conclusion, the survey at this time can’t achieve much, but just adds another loud noise at this difficult time for DCBC.
I don't understand the argument here. Nobody forbid you voice your appreciation for elders if you think they did good job to remove Rev. Yi. It's just a survey so the elders and language ministers and deacons know what congregation are thinking. Plain and simple.
We have trust issue here, it's understandable, that's why a more transparent procedure is extra important now. I personally believe the survey is in good intention, but saying "Nobody forbid you voice your appreciation for elders if you think they did good job to remove Rev. Yi." won't help, only reinforce those speculation. We all know removing Yi was the most painful thing to do, why is it a "good job"? If you don't mean it, don't say it, if you mean it, then....
What is the basis of the survey? are all DCBC members got invited to take the survey? I did not get one, and I am a church member? How do you justify that the survey are the voice of the majority?
Some people did think it's a job well done to remove Rev. Yi. So why hide it? If those three pastors didn't leave, maybe they will have a celebration party like Rev. Ma said. That's why I don't understand why they against the survey.
Appreciated for your great points about trusting issue and more transparent procedure. Here is an example, if survey shows 70% of people don’t like current leaderships, can this be used to call for them to resign? But think of it, since there is no way to know who participated the survey, how many times they took the survey, etc., the results can be totally distorted with small survey base.
Another thing I don’t understand is why some deacons wanted so urgently to push out their own agendas, like the survey and Mandarin fellowships meeting with elders scheduled next week. DCBC has already scheduled a forum in first week of Nov, which is a good opportunity to talk about church issues with a broader member base. These extra activities not only add more works for elders (don’t you think they have already too many things on their plates?), but also send out more confusions to the normal members like myself.
So my suggestion is let us calm down and wait for a couple of weeks and have a really good talk next month. It is really not necessary to put ourselves in more stressful situations than it is absolutely needed.
"Some people did think it's a job well done to remove Rev. Yi. So why hide it?"
You are the only one saying it. If you don't mean it, don't say it.
We desperately need better communication, maybe that's why some deacons want to do survey and "meet with elders" meeting, and some people think those are bad ideas. Maybe you can address your concern personally with the deacon, see if there is anyway he (they) can easy your concern. By all means, try our best to move forward, not backward.
"But think of it, since there is no way to know who participated the survey, how many times they took the survey, etc., the results can be totally distorted with small survey base."
A very good point. I think that the survey is useless and let us just ignore it.
民要攻打民、國要攻打國，原來首先在DCBC。
人人呱呱叫，魔鬼哈哈笑，上帝消失了?
還是尼采的話「上帝已死」?
楼上的这位，请去跟牧师谈，我们无法回答你的问题。我们只想在这论坛上寻求教会合一之道，,虽然意见不同，但不一定谁对谁错，至少我们的心态是诚恳的
楼上的这位:
聖經舊約,新約告诉我們,世界的末日必有民要攻打民、國要攻打國.事實上不需要跟牧师谈.你有否瞭解楼上的楼上的意思。
要打请去别地方打， 假如你有诚意为教会合一努力请发有益建言否则这个论坛不属于你。
我们不打，记住了？
Let us call on the elders to announce a boycott of the survey. It will be DOA, end of issues.
那位发表“民要攻打民”的博友意思是叫我们不要自己人打自己人，这么浅的也看不明白吗?
尼采「上帝已死」真正涵義是说上帝已经被人类自己杀死，自己的意志才是超过一切的，讓當時腐敗的神職人員和沒有生命力的基督徒明白，他們沒有彰顯出上帝的榮美。
他是提醒我们更應該好好為主而活，讓人看見主確確實實是又真又活的神。
尼采的哲学引人争论，我们最好不要被误导也不要误导别人
Dear Everyone,
I am sorry that my survey has caused conflict. Here is my input:
1. I wrote the survey. I had some brothers review it/give me input, and then I sent it out.
2. I am the English Deacon, and I only sent this survey to English Ministry Leaders (~20 people). I said they could forward it to the people in their small groups/fellowships if they thought it was appropriate (I trust their judgment). I want to get the input from the English leaders primarily, as that is who I am directly responsible for, and I have done surveys like this in the past to help gather feedback as a basis for discussion. All the English Leaders who have responded so far listed their names, so I know who said what, and I can talk with them more about what is on their heart.
3. I told the other two language deacons about this, and they have chosen to also do surveys. I support their decision to do that for their ministries.
4. I told the Deacon Board and Elders that I was conducting this survey to give them feedback from English Ministry Leaders. Some expressed concerns that the sample size might be small. I understand their concerns, and I said I’d like to start with ministry leaders, and we can all interpret the results as the Lord leads us.
5. The Deacon Board did not make any decision for or against the survey, as I just sent it to English Ministry Leaders. The Elders support me sending out this survey to English Ministry Leaders.
6. After our deacon meeting, I sent the survey to the Deacon Board and Elders requesting their input, and I have not received any requests for any changes to be made to the survey.
7. I should not have titled it "DCBC Survey from Leadership", as that has unintentionally caused some confusion, and I am sorry about that. I should have titled it "Survey from OnDat". The title has been changed to avoid further confusion.
8. My intention is not to build a case against anyone. My intention is to help the Elders and Deacons get feedback from the English Leaders. I think more communication, if done in a healthy manner, is good.
9. I am just 1 of 11 deacons, and I am assigned to English Ministry. I report to PJ and now Pastor David as interim English Pastor, and I serve them as they need and direct. I do not speak on behalf of the Deacon Board or the church, and I am sorry for misleading anyone in that way.
10. From my perspective, I believe this survey is a healthy and efficienty way of consolidating and communicating feedback/questions from 20+ people to our Elders and Deacons. I understand others feel this survey is useless, and that is fine.
11. I do not have any hidden agenda to remove anyone. But I do want our Elders, Deacons (including myself), and founding members to hear and understand the heart of English Lay Leaders. That is my motivation for the survey. English Lay Leaders are not the only voice of our church, and they are not the most important. But again, they are the people that I am directly responsible for, and I want to get their input and pass it up to the overall church leaders.
If you have any questions or concerns, you can email me (ondat_t@yahoo.com), and we can set up a time to talk.
One final note – the Elders would like to know who is in charge of this blog. If you could go talk with the Elders, they would appreciate it.
In Christ,
OnDat.
FYI, here are my survey questions (in case you have not seen it):
1. What are the key issues that you see in our church?
(please try to state things objectively and refrain from personal attacks)
2. What questions or feedback do you have for our Elders, Pastoral Staff, and/or Deacons?
(please specify if your question is directed towards a specific group of leaders)
3. What suggestions do you have for how we can move forward as a church?
(including things you can do yourself)
4a. On a scale of 0 to 10, where are you at when it comes to staying at DCBC?
(0 = I am staying at DCBC, 5 = I haven't decided yet, 10 = I am leaving DCBC)
4b. What are the reasons for your answer above?
To ondat
Any survey you want to do , pls creat your own blog,
Do not mess around this blog, DCBC can not kick you
Out, but I can.
The real blog owner should come forward, don't let the anonymous clown ruin our relationship.
OnDat,
Thank you for the explanation, I agree with everything you said except one thing: none of the 20+ leaders will be able to represent me.
"Leadership" can't sound any nastier now. For the past few months, we were told to trust and support our leaders, so we did. When truth revealed it turned out they failed us and left us at lost. Did they take responsibility for the mess? No, they bended the truth, misquoted the Bible, then abandon us! Going through the names of these 20+ small group leaders and 3 language deacons, you don't really need a survey to know where they stand by. I don't know if church wide survey will do better job, but not these 20+ few.
If anyone knows who the owner of this blog is, please let the elders know the name of the person.
thank you,
Why did you want to know who the owner of this blog is? This person did not do anything that initiated the division of DCBC. This blog is a place that we can express our feeling and opinions. Don't put the blames on this person.
To Ondat:
I am sure your mistake about "7. I should not have titled it "DCBC Survey from Leadership", as that has unintentionally caused some confusion, and I am sorry about that. I should have titled it "Survey from OnDat". The title has been changed to avoid further confusion." was just a honest mistake like your master Yi.
When you wrote "from leadership" instead "from Ondat" is that a type error or intentional misleading the people...??? Pls help us understand your justification on this "mistake"
Brother Ondat is trying to understand why people are leaving/staying. Stop attacking him and stop attacking each other. If we want DCBC to heal and be united, we need to practice it. The owner of this blog can take the first step - shut down this blog.
to anonymous who said:
"Why did you want to know who the owner of this blog is?"
my response to you: The ELDERS would like to know. If anyone knows, please speak to the ELDERS directly since they have requested it and we should submit to their request.
To anonymous who said:
"This person did not do anything that initiated the division of DCBC"
My response to you: Then there should not be any fear in letting the Elders know who the owner of the blog is.
To anonymous who said: "This blog is a place that we can express our feeling and opinions."
My response to you: Thank you for your opinion. We let the Elders decide once they read this blog. You have your opinion, they will have theirs. My opinion is that this blog, for some (not all) has been a place where people have committed personal attacks, gossip and false accusations of others.
If the owner of the blog feels this blog is above reproach, then let him/her without fear come forward and explain to the elders.
If the elders decide this blog is inappropriate, I will stop participating. They are the only "leadership" that I still respect.
號外！號外！
伊還沒有走，他認為他是 leave of absent 所以拒絕交出電腦，他仍然可以進入教會內部網，仍然不交出辦公室鑰匙，所以他可以任意出入辦公室嗎？
Does Elders really want this blog shut down? I doubt it. This blog helps Elder bring down Pastor Yi and outs other pastors. This blog also helps them to consolidate their supporting base. With the help of Pastor Ma and the propaganda of this blog, they also successfully clean up the church and kick out brothers and sisters who have different opinions (i.e. the weeds that sprout out after winter in Pastor Ma’s sermon). They should give the author of this blog the highest honor and reward him with some leadership role in the church.
I have to admit that I am the weed you guys want to wipe out so I have no choice but to leave the church. My original happy DCBC experience all sudden becomes a nightmare that I want to erase in urgency and at all cost. I was very sad before but now I already get it over by doing some outdoor activities with my non Christian friends. Anyway, every party will come to an end and I think this is the time so let me just say Good bye to my DCBC friends. Wish you all well.
Peopole still refuse to accept the real reason why Yi has to be removed. It's not about the mistake he has made, it's about he lied to everyone, even his supporters.
This blog helped people to know the truth, with verified envidence. Otherwise, we will still be mis-accused by the lier himself.
How did this blog help other pastors leave the church?
What do the elders have to do with this blog?
Who kick out people with different opinions? No one.
Why do you have no choice but leave? There are many ways you can turn arounnd, but if you insist been a "weed", then I guess you have to go, your decision.
Everybody has nightmare thanks to your contribution.
To the self proclaimed weed
I am glad you realized you are the weed. NOW, got out!!
I just spoke with Elder Wang today. He will make an announcement at the mandarin worship next week on removal of blog. If anyone knows the host of this blog please let Elder Wang know.
The elders had nothing to do with blog.
This blog, for some, is a breeding ground for defamation and libel, which could render individual bloggers and DCBC legally liable.
Don't think because you're anonymous that you can say anything.
There have been court cases where google was forced to uncover "anonymous" bloggers (using IP addresses) for libel and defamation.
Blog Owner, If you think what you did is right and good for the church, then you should have no fear to step forward. I hope you are as tough as your words.
知道你們的教會由於伊慶栛牧師的存在，我是一位在住在CA 的一名基督徒，想當年我們也經歷過同你們一樣的遭遇。在大約十年前我們三一華人浸信會也是由於伊慶栛的來到。教會也弄到一團糟像你們現時一樣。他（伊）蒙騙了主任牧師（許希哲）和執事們，為要達成按立牧師的念頭，用一切手段達到目的，他（伊）成功了，然後獸心出現，想將他的恩人許牧師趕走，那時候執長們醒悟過來，將他（伊）趕走。很可惜當年鍾世豪牧師有份安立伊的其中一位牧師，當年他有悔意作這事，但在今天他（鍾）反口說沒有這回事，我是美南浸聯會總幹事親口對我說的。是我親耳聽到的。以前執事們在某塲合遇見我們只當我們是一群返判份子。現今他們眼睛明亮了，遇見我們還是客客氣氣的來跟我們打召呼問安。還要請我們回去參加教會獻堂典禮。你們受蒙騙的一群，今天就醒來吧 ，曰後我們還要見主面。啊門
We did not say anything, we only say the truth about yi
Why you are so annoyed. Is this communist country?
Do we still have the right to speech? I only know we do not have the right to lie, lie on the resume... Take me to the court if you have to. I only want to know do I have the right to speak the truth.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Even in a free country like the USA, your right to free speech does not give you the right to commit libel and defamation. Thus, even in a country like the US, the courts have the right to punish you if you abuse your freedom of speech. This is the minimum standard for a non-believer.
IF YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST, you are held to an even higher standard than the world.
The world has the courts to settle its matters. We as a church, need to speak truth with LOVE and GRACE as Christ has taught us. Ultimately, everyone has to give an account to the Lord Jesus Christ, who sees the heart.
No need to be offended. If you feel you're speaking the truth in love and grace, then this message is not for you.
Let us all, including me, speak truth in love and grace so we may build up the body of Christ to unity.
Ephesians 4:14-16
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
15 Instead, SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and BUILDS ITSELF UP IN LOVE, as each part does its work.
"IF YOU ARE A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST, you are held to an even higher standard than the world."
I totally agree. Also
IF YOU ARE THE SERVANT of GOD, YOU SHOULD HELD EVEN HIGHER STANDARD THAN THE FOLLOWER.
Agree?
Dear brother who calls himself a weed.
I understand your hurt and anger throughout this whole process. Please forgive us for we, as a body of Christ, have not been a good witness and testimony to you and to the world. We are all sinners in need of forgiveness of Christ.
Our words/actions, often not out of love, but of anger, intentionally or unintentionally, have caused many to stumble.
I ask, however, that you would continue to hold on to your faith in Jesus Christ, even if you decide DCBC is no longer your home church.
I understand that many, who have prayerfully considered, will decide to leave because they need to heal and restore. I respect their decision.
I also encourage you to speak with the elders directly if you have any issues or questions. I spoke with both Elder Hsu and Elder Wang and was able to understand their perspective. I also spoke with the pastors before they left. All of them (pastors and elders) humbly admitted there were things they could have done differently and I was very encouraged by their honesty and humility.
Our elders and pastors have provided an example of humility and repentance, and I pray the whole church will follow suit.
I pray, that you will find another church that will help you grow spiritually. Remember that our hope and faith is not in man, but in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Christian walk was not meant to be walked alone. Do not give up meeting with other believers.
I love you my brother/sister. I will pray for you. No matter what others say, you are always welcome back to DCBC. Please keep us in your prayers as well.
in Christ,
your fellow brother and sister
Heb 10:24-25
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward LOVE and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
You got me confuse Why is it possible speak truth, fact, cause libel, defamation??
Good articles on Gossip & Slander:
http://www.victorious.org/gossip.htm
http://www.bible-topics.com/Slander.html
Check this out also:
http://encouragingbiblequotes.com/versesgossipa.html
To Anonymous above:
Do you consider posting comments on this blog. gossip or Slander?
Ddo you consider telling the truth to others gossip or Slander?
Do you consider expressing your opinion.. gossip or slander?
what is your purpose of sending the link?
PJ started using words such as gossip, slander, rumor, falsified...to round up the entire congregation to interfer the investigation of Yi's ethical issue, and caused church division, even at homes siblins against each other, children against parents, .... . While I appreciate these links, I think people will automatic shut off when they hear these words again.
If you are ready to argue if PJ caused church division, nobody can deny that he contributed big portion of it. I'm curious what he meant when he said he would've done some of the things differently?
While I appreciate these links, I think people will automatic shut off when they hear these words again.
It is hard for me to understand why Christ followers will shut off when they hear words from the Bible again...
Now this post below is a classic example of slander/gossip:
If you are ready to argue if PJ caused church division, nobody can deny that he contributed big portion of it. I'm curious what he meant when he said he would've done some of the things differently?
You are implying your own version of PJ's intention of giving a certain sermon. And you are speculating his comment base on a third person's account. I encourage you to talk with PJ directly.
"It is hard for me to understand why Christ followers will shut off when they hear words from the Bible again..."
People will shut off by these words (gossip, slander, rumor, falsified...) before they can bring themselves to these links, whatever the links are.
Don't you agree his "certain sermon" caused damage and he should've come forward to give his followers some kind of closure?
I actually went to those links and read most of them. I don't mean to argue with anyone, just my honest feelings. I really think Yi and PJ should've read to themselves before they used these verses to preach and/or condamn the congregation. They can use that "throwing stone to that prosititude" story to remind themselves. Unless they found themselves sinless they can accuse other people for the same sin.
"I encourage you to talk with PJ directly."
I will never do that, you want to know why? I have no courage to hear another ...I don't know how to put it. I went to church to worship, came home with my faith shattered.
Don't you agree his "certain sermon" caused damage and he should've come forward to give his followers some kind of closure?
Now I'm totally lost. How does a sermon which urges us not to gossip and slander (which is in sync with what the Bible teaches) causes damage? I can understand if it cause uneasiness to gossipers and slanderers.
By the way, please stop using the term "his followers". None of us should follow a certain pastor, elder or minister. We should all only follow Christ and Christ alone.
I will never do that, you want to know why? I have no courage to hear another ...I don't know how to put it. I went to church to worship, came home with my faith shattered.
You lost me too. Yet you found it more fruitful to come to this blog and "express" yourself...
If you have questions about someone's intention, would it be easier to directly seek anwser from that person?
BTW, if your faith is base on a person/people, it is destined to be shattered because we are all sinners. So I encourage you to fix your eyes on Jesus. Just ask the simple question "What would Jesus do?" might help you too.
Why would I care his intention? Is that the only thing you can pick up to argue with me? I express my feelings but you are welcome to ignore it. I shouldn't base my faith on people, I knew that all along, but losing faith to my spiritual leaders? that will take me a while to recover. I'll be good, I have faith in God, that faith will never be shattered.
Listen to his sermon carefully, would you? listen it again now and compare to the first time you hear it, you will feel like waking up from a worst nightmare.
I really think Yi and PJ should've read to themselves before they used these verses to preach and/or condamn the congregation. They can use that "throwing stone to that prosititude" story to remind themselves. Unless they found themselves sinless they can accuse other people for the same sin.
I am certain that the pastors themselves know they are sinners. As a matter of fact, we cannot accept Christ as savior if we don't realize we ourselves are sinners. So does it mean no one could use God's word to urges or encourages other not to sin?
What I found is most Bible verses provide no effect if I use it to seek sawdust in my brother's eyes (Matt 7:3). They are most effective when I use it as self-direct questions to examine myself (or to seek the log in my own eye).
That's why I believe most pastors use a sermon not to accuse the congregation but to urges everyone (including themselves) to examine himself/herself to see if we sinned against God or not.
I know I know, we should read the Bible as God's talking to us. I just want to be honest that it's very hard not to relate to those bad experiences and memeries. Thank you for the links and if you are the one that always feed us with Bible verses, I thank you. For a while it's really hard to humble myself to read through (thinking you have hidden agenda maybe?) We all need to leave these "crap" behind and go back to our Lord, right.
Why would I care his intention? Is that the only thing you can pick up to argue with me? I express my feelings but you are welcome to ignore it. I shouldn't base my faith on people, I knew that all along, but losing faith to my spiritual leaders? that will take me a while to recover. I'll be good, I have faith in God, that faith will never be shattered.
Brother/Sister Anonymous, I have no intention to pick on you or argue with you. If I hurt your feelings in anyway, please accept my apology. And likewise I just seek to express my ideas, you are welcome to ignore my comments too. :)
I will pray for you. I still encourage you to talk with PJ, at least let him know how you feel. Direct communication solves a lot of issues for me in the past.
No need to talk to PJ, he left. PJ is only part of the problem. Yi is the main problem. Don't lose focus here.
Brothers and sisters,
I've spoken to Elder Wang and a few of the pastors. And both sides have admitted that they have in one way or another contributed to our church situation and perhaps would have done certain things differently. Now they have exemplified humble and repentant hearts. We too should do the same.
It's really time to get down on our knees and self examine ourselves and seek the Lord's forgiveness on how each one of us has contributed to the problem.
There is a lot of hurt and anger, I understand. Instead of directing the anger and hurt towards our leaders/brothers/sisters, we need to lay down these feelings at Jesus' feet and ask the Spirit, our comforter, to heal us. We need to stop allowing the flesh and the evil one to use words to further divide and hurt one another. Stop the finger pointing which causes more division. Stop the accusations toward one another.
It's time to reconcile with one another, even if we see the matters differently. We can agree to disagree and respect each other.
If we humble ourselves, self examine our own sins and seek the Lord in prayer, He will heal us.
2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Anonymous Said “So I encourage you to fix your eyes on Jesus. Just ask the simple question "What would Jesus do?" might help you too.” Many people like to use “What would Jesus do?” To encourage others. I guess pastors like to use this phrase to encourage their congregation too, but do they use this to encourage themselves as well? What would Jesus do if He need to write a resume? Make some honest to get the position he want? What would Jesus do a lie been discovered? Tell congregation that everyone makes mistake and use more lies to cover previous? What would Jesus do if He heard kids do not trust their parents anymore? Would He use this as an example to against those parents in Sunday sermon? What would Jesus do when He knew His beloved church is in need? Would He leave the church with others at the same time?
Also, one more thing. When I spoke to the elders, pastors and some deacons, they ask of our prayer. They are just humans, in desperate need of God's wisdom and clarity of mind to know how to move forward. This matter is beyond man's ability to solve. Our church is bleeding heavily and we desperately need Godly wisdom to heal, reconcile and move forward in unity.
I even encourage you to post prayers on this blog -- that would be edifying to the body.
1 Timothy 1:1-3
1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior
to anonymous who said:
"What would Jesus do when He knew His beloved church is in need? Would He leave the church with others at the same time?"
Stop judging brothers and sisters who are leaving. Everyone is in different stages of their walk. God will call some to stay and others to leave -- whatever is best for their spiritual growth. But we are not God. We cannot see their hearts. We cannot see the prayers and the struggles of individual brothers and sisters who have prayerfully considered.
Some really need to leave because they are discouraged and needing to heal and restore, away from DCBC. And that is OK. We need to respect their decision. Some are called to stay. We are called to faith in Jesus Christ, not faith to a certain church.
Pray for those leaving that the Lord will minister to them. Stop attacking them.
Stop judging brothers and sisters who are leaving. Everyone is in different stages of their walk. God will call some to stay and others to leave - You should remind yourself with “stop judging brothers and sisters”. My previous post is to pastors only those 3 pastors who left last Sunday with Yi. Also we are not God, so how do you know what God really want to see?
I apologize if I misunderstood you, but your statement was not clear that you were referring to the three pastors.
Have you spoken to the three pastors who left? I have. They have very good reasons to leave and have been praying these few months. They too need to heal and restore from the whole process. These last few months have been difficult for them. We don't even know what they've gone through and how their families have been personally attacked.
If you have an issue with their leaving you should speak to them directly.
My previous post is to pastors only those 3 pastors who left last Sunday with Yi. Also we are not God, so how do you know what God really want to see?
Then would you agree that your questions should be best anwsered by the pastors directly? Why speculate? The question is: Do you have the courage to talk to them face to face?
And friend, it's not hard to tell what God want to see. It's all over the Bible. One thing come to mind: "Love each other"...(John 15:12)
To Anonymous who said “Then would you agree that your questions should be best anwsered by the pastors directly? Why speculate? The question is: Do you have the courage to talk to them face to face?” So, you want me to ask Yi why he cheat on resume and lying over and over? Ask PJ why he did not do his job to teach kids and teens to trust and obey their parents? Ask those 3 pastors why they rather break Christ's body then try to work something out with church. It's too rude to do that. Also, just like you said Bible teach us to love each others, but I did not see love from any of these pastors.
They need to come forward to address to the entire congregation, not just answer questions to individuals, because they made speeches as church pastors in front of congragation in formal gatherings. The topics should be, among others but I think the most important: "What is really "God ordained servant"? We need to be clarified, non-believers need to understand, whoever got confused deserves a good answer. They (and we too) pray, but do we really listen?
To the Anonymous that said:
"So, you want me to ask Yi why he cheat on resume and lying over and over? Ask PJ why he did not do his job to teach kids and teens to trust and obey their parents? Ask those 3 pastors why they rather break Christ's body then try to work something out with church. It's too rude to do that. Also, just like you said Bible teach us to love each others, but I did not see love from any of these pastors."
No, there is no need for you to talk to any of the pastors who left. You have already made up your mind. You are judging them. You are one of the angry people in the church that keep throwing stones. Keep it up and more congregation members will leave because of your judgemental attitude. You talk about not dividing the church and love yet you fail to realize that your actions continue to divide the church. There is no need to attack the pastors or people who left DCBC. They have their reasons and it is between them and God. You need to seriously re-evaluate your attitude because it stinks.
We stink because they dumped trash all over us. They really need to clean up before left ;)
That being said, seriously, it's cleanup time for us bro and sis, nobody's going to do this for us, and better start early than late, or we'll have second crisis coming soon.
To Anonymous who said “You are judging them. You are one of the angry people in the church that keep throwing stones.” You are also judging me and throwing stones on me. How can someone throwing stones to others and tell them to stop.
"What is really "God ordained servant"? We need to be clarified, non-believers need to understand, whoever got confused deserves a good answer.
This question is best anwser by the elders since different denominations might have different interpretations. But from Googling, "ordination" generally means: 1) recognize and confirm that an individual has been called by God to ministry,
2) acknowledges that the individual has gone through a period of discernment and training related to this call, and
3) authorizes that individual to take on the office of ministry.
I am not judging you. I am rebuking you for your sin. Maybe if you stopped being so closed minded and hell bent on destroying these people, you could see that you are sinning.
If I wanted to judge you, I would find you to your face and tell you - with more colorful language.
""What is really "God ordained servant"? We need to be clarified, non-believers need to understand, whoever got confused deserves a good answer. "
We can google everything, then why would we go to church listening to pastor's sermon? Because they can guide us to best utilize God's words into our specific daily challenges. The way they interpreted "God ordained servant" , among other things, really stumble a lot of peopple, Many months has passed we want to know if they can clarify things that don't match up their preaching. Honest answers will help us regain our trust to cleric again. I know it's hard for them to do, so if they can't do it, for whatever reason, we'll be ok with it. For the love of our brothers (can't see them as our pastors for now), we'll pray for them
what part of God ordained servant you don't understand? Right now you want to justified your attacking action to God-ordained servant. It's too late. You have to explain to God one day for your words and actions. Even if he made mistake, he is still God's ordained servant. For the people who only address their concerns without sin against God in your words and action, you are not in this group.
So, you want me to ask Yi why he cheat on resume and lying over and over? Ask PJ why he did not do his job to teach kids and teens to trust and obey their parents? Ask those 3 pastors why they rather break Christ's body then try to work something out with church. It's too rude to do that. Also, just like you said Bible teach us to love each others, but I did not see love from any of these pastors.
A lot of conflicts start because of miscommunication or lack of communication. I cannot think of better way to obtain information I need other than going directly to the source. Please share if you have any suggestions. Besides, there are lots of ways to inquire information from a person. Being rude or not is your choice.
In my view, contacting the pastors are far better than getting stuck in the cloud of speculation. You see from what you said, you are assuming Pastor Yi intentionally cheat his way to DCBC (it's still puzzling to me why anyone would do that. The risk and the reward just doesn't add up - but that's only my opinion - no hidden agenda here, please don't label me as "follower of Yi" :) ), PJ intentionally tell the kids not to obey their parents. (You see some parents just don't realize their kids are also capable of analyzing facts on their own. Did they try to understand how and why their kids come up with different opinions on things?), the 3 pastors break the church by leaving (I think they all have expressed their own reasons. Maybe we should ask ourselves: Do we value these brothers's exhortations and opinions base on Biblical values? Or just treat them as mere employees?)
Now I really hope they can come forward and said: "Those trying to defend me are not really representing me." You are not helping them, just the opposite.
I can always google, can't I? But I'd like to know why or how their preaching don't match up. For those who still refuse to admit Mr. Yi been dishonest, please read his letter to the elders and then listen to the recording of the interview, if you can still come up with excuses, you are very good.
Did you really listen to that recording, or you heard other people said? Because I did. The attendance number Rev. Yi referred was the number "right now" (that is at the date of 8/23/2009).
To Anonymous said @November 3, 2011 6:52 AM:
Since you really want to so "precise" about the tape,
Technically speaking, when Yi mentioned about the third church member for 350 people, he did not use "currently" or "right now" like the first two churches. So please go back to listen the tape CAREFULLY". Or does this count as another "honest mistake"?
Here is Yi’s respond recorded from the tape (it has been posted in the blog before):
"
I served at several churches. The first church I served at currently has about 700 people. There are three congregations. I was the deacon board chair for several terms. My responsibilities included: teaching Sunday school in all three languages, my responsibilities were related to fellowship and outreach and also in all three languages.
In the second church, I was their elder. I was in teaching, counseling, leading and discipleship. This church has about 400 people right now and again three languages.
My third church experience: I was the Mandarin pastor, about 350 people and also three languages. I had a really good relationship with the English pastor.
And right now my current church has a little bit over 100. We just have Mandarin and English and my English pastor also has really good relationship with me.
"
First of all, when the 350 people was mentioned, it wasn't "right now". He definitely said he was a Mandarin pastor for 350 people.
Secondly, why did he tell the numbers at current time? Aren’t we more interested in the numbers when he served? Even if he didn’t cheat, should we ask if he was trying to mislead intentionally? From the answers, he tried very hard to give the impression that he served at big churches, while in fact, he never did.
Please also remember: the questions were given to him before the interview so he had time to prepare for them and check the fact carefully. But unfortunately, the numbers don’t match with what were discovered later.
Dear Bro & Sis,
We better focus in the future, don't waste our time to idiscuss or comment Yi, PJ, Ho & Bul. They all gone. We can breath now. 1st, we have to follow God's gudience and pray to God give us wisdom how to grow spiritually.
Someone said "If we humble ourselves, self examine our own sins and seek the Lord in prayer, He will heal us."
"2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
Don't just talk and no action. Last night, there's no english bro & sis went to the prayer meeting. I even encourage you to pray and seek God's gudience. Only talk without prayer, that's means nothing. I wonder why our part of pastoral staff and deacons didn't go to pray. Do they know prayer is so important? They should lead and encourage bro & sis to join.
DCBC is like a family run restaurant. Church leaders (boss) hire pastor (chef) and mandate them to preach by their guidelines (according to boss's cook book). Brothers and sisters come to worship (customers have a quick meal). Chef dares to cook creatively will have earful, be scold at and even fired. Eventually, customers stop coming. Facing the empty seats, the boss finally realized that his cook book is out of date and no longer fulfill the customer's taste.
Same to a church, if church leaders care more about their power than shepherding brothers and sisters, fail to recognize that church is God's temple but grip on its ownership and the authorities, the ultimate outcome will be a significant exodus of church members. We see some successful restaurants in this area gradually lost the edge due to the ignorance of changing market and eventually closed for good.
Church leaders! do you like to see DCBC has same fate as those obsolete restaurant?
Then he said this in the letter to the Elders:
"(3) During the interview, I never claimed that I pastored a larger church of 300+
congregation. I need the person who provided that faulty statement to come out and testify."
As long as people continue defending him, the topic will keep coming back.
Don't just talk and no action. Last night, there's no english bro & sis went to the prayer meeting. I even encourage you to pray and seek God's gudience. Only talk without prayer, that's means nothing. I wonder why our part of pastoral staff and deacons didn't go to pray. Do they know prayer is so important? They should lead and encourage bro & sis to join.
Maybe they prefer to pray in private, like Jesus teaches in Matthew Ch6? :)
Chef can bring fresh vibe to the resturant, but better communite with the boss before any changes made.
Let's take last night's as example: It's not a crime if pastrol/deacons decide to pray privately instead of going to church prayer meetings. But it will be nice to let the decision known to entire church. What if someone come to the prayer meeting and see nobody there?
Good communication is the key.
(I don't like the boss/chef/...metaphor, though)
Reply to DCBC Like a family own restaurant
Pls do not down grade DCBC like that, I love DCBC I saw
Hard working bro and sister they Are putting hrs after hrs
In the church to serve the bro and sister who needed. DCBC is wounded so badly, pls show your support, show your love, prey with us.
What if someone come to the prayer meeting and see nobody there?
Pray? I suppose? Unless they really need an audience. Well God is always there to listen. :)
Many english members attend the Sunday morning prayer which will start @ 8:26am and end @ 09:11am this coming Sunday.
For many, that's a better time than Wed nights. That meeting is open to all congregation, not just english.
Anonymous said:
"Don't just talk and no action. Last night, there's no english bro & sis went to the prayer meeting. I even encourage you to pray and seek God's gudience. Only talk without prayer, that's means nothing. I wonder why our part of pastoral staff and deacons didn't go to pray. Do they know prayer is so important? They should lead and encourage bro & sis to join."
In addition to Sunday morning prayer meeting, many english brothers and sisters, including the deacons, have been meeting on Sunday nights to pray together specifically for the church situation. This past Sunday, the two elders joined the prayer meeting (you can ask them).
So yes, the English bros and sisters, including English deacons are praying, not only talk about praying.
This is another evidence of accusation without first verifying the facts. Why do we keep on doing this brothers and sisters?? False accusations divide the church and it's a tool of the evil one.
"Pray? I suppose? Unless they really need an audience. Well God is always there to listen. :)"
My answer: you've never been to one have you?
"For many, that's a better time than Wed nights."
My answer:
We are talking about Wednesday night church prayer meetings, not any other prayers. You can pray anytime anywhere, privately or together, not a bad thing at all.
Wednesday night church prayer meeting is official church function that's been in schedule for years and years. The Sunday morning prayer can be in addition to Wednesday night meeting or in place of it, whatever you think is better, but whoever is in charge, they really need to communicate well with church officials and have entire church informed.
My answer: you've never been to one have you?
Wrong guess...I have been to Wednesday night prayer meeting before. I just don't like to assume people do not pray if they don't show their faces in the "official" church function.
If you've been there, you should've known it's not only praying, it's prayer + meeting. it's official because you get church wide prayer requests and pray together. And there are other things like prasing and testimonies. you've been there, right?
We need better communication, that's all.
Anonymous who said:
"My answer: you've never been to one have you?"
Who is this person that keeps on accusing his/her brothers/sisters?
"Who is this person that keeps on accusing his/her brothers/sisters?"
If you read it as accusing, how about this:
"Pray? I suppose? Unless they really need an audience"
Did he/she accuse those who come to prayer meetings are seeking for audience?
I am sure neither is true.
Did he/she accuse those who come to prayer meetings are seeking for audience?
I just can't resist to provide the obvious anwser to your obvious question of "What if someone come to the prayer meeting and see nobody there?"
Perhaps, it is better if I say: "Of course they come to the prayer meeting to pray and share testimonies - even nobody is there"
However, I doubt if anyone has any God pleasing testimony to share lately... Oops...
Well, you can share it here if you have one...this blog is somewhat "official" now...:D
"What if someone come to the prayer meeting and see nobody there?"
Well I guess he can pray by himself then, but he will also wonder:
1) where is everybody? what happen? Can it be any more bad news?
2)Why can't church keep their calendar current?
3)Are we encouraged or discouraged to come to this prayer meeting? Should I come next week?
Again, communication!
Don't just talk and no action. Last night, there's no english bro & sis went to the prayer meeting. I even encourage you to pray and seek God's gudience. Only talk without prayer, that's means nothing. I wonder why our part of pastoral staff and deacons didn't go to pray. Do they know prayer is so important? They should lead and encourage bro & sis to join.
Well...your original post doesn't sounds like you are pointing out there is lack of communication in the church. Do you agree?
I hope I am the only one that misinterpret it.
For your other questions, I guess you can check with the church office or elders directly. You know...through the "official" communication channel?
"prayer vs. action" post was not mine.
I simply believe that better communication is crucial if we want to move forward.
By the way, I assume you don't take the word "official" lightly, right?
correct: "talk vs action" post was not mine.
Never mind guys...I lost track of which Anonymous I talked to.
Well, I am one of them too... :)
Bt the way, where is the fellow Anonymous that keeps reminding us to focus on pastor Yi?
Hey, here's your cue to say: "Communication is only part of the problem. Yi is the main problem. Don't lose focus here."
OK, that was not mine either, I don't have "communication" registered as my trade mark. :)
I want to set the record straight because those bro and sis who frantically tried to remove Rev. Yi still don't understand why about 3/4 of English congregation and about 1/2 of mandarin congregation and about 1/2 of Cabot congregation are upset and want to leave. We can argue endlessly if Rev. Yi did it intentionally or unintentionally. We just want you to respect the position Rev. Yi represents because we fear God and respect God's ordained servant. We think the process our leaders took is not Biblical, rushing into pastors' offices and shouting "we are going to fire you", Ganging up to spread rumors and speculations? Choir members openly leaving after praising? It's dishonoring God's name.
No, it is not repecting Yi's name when choirs left before Yi's preaching. Please don't set the equal sign between God and Yi.
"We just want you to respect the position Rev. Yi represents because we fear God and respect God's ordained servant".
That's the root of all the problems, what exactly "God's ordained servant".
"We think the process our leaders took is not Biblical,"
What do you think about your pastor's behavior? Biblical?
Whatever suit you, brother.
Are our elders "God's ordained servants"?
If yes, why don't you "respect the position they represents because we fear God and respect God's ordained servant".
If they are not, why do you exame them by higher standards than those of God's ordained servant, while overlooking major ethical problems of your "God's ordained servant"?
Are our elders "God's ordained servants"?
If yes, why don't you "respect the position they represents because we fear God and respect God's ordained servant".
If they are not, why do you exame them by higher standards than those of God's ordained servant, while overlooking major ethical problems of your "God's ordained servant"?
"rushing into pastors' offices and shouting "we are going to fire you".
Remind yourself about Mrs. B's "crap". However you treated that incident, you cann use it again here.
Just because other people did the bad thing didn't give us the right to do the same. Because we all have to face God one day. Choir members are like the priests before to lead the congregation worshiping
God. The sermon is just part of worship. If you can't stand in the same room with Rev. Yi, you rather not to sing in the choir those weeks, otherwise the choir is just a singing group like one of the guest said. Also remember the story of David and Saul!
To the above, at least those choir members left after the special music are still serving in choir. What about those who quits choir now? One of them is a current deacon... The reason they used to quit is ridiculous ... What a joke of a deacon.
Brothers and sisters, if we continue fighting and accusing one another, no matter what sacrifice we bring to the Lord (whether we attend the "official" Wed night prayer meeting or sing in the choir), the Lord is not pleased. He looks at the heart and He desires a heart of humility, mercy and compassion.
Matt 12:7: If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice"
Psalms 51:16-17 - You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, you, God will not despise.
To Anonymous who said "Just because other people did the bad thing didn't give us the right to do the same."
So we all agree that Mr. Yi is the one who doing the bad thing first. if so, why do you think God could use his mouth to preach God's word? God's word is not come out from a cheater's mouth.
"Because we all have to face God one day."
I totally agree with you and don't forget you also have to face to God one day when judgment day come and how would you face that day when you judge someone behind?
"Also remember the story of David and Saul!"
I don't understand why you mention "David and Saul when you talk about choir walk out? They don't seem to related.
If God can use Peter (who betrayed Jesus three times, also lied, but I still think only God can judge if Yi did it intentionally. Anyway it's not what I want to discuss here. You can have your own opinion. I am fine with it) in the Bible, then He can use Rev. Yi. Besides, I respect his position because I respect God. I didn't judge others behind their back, I just fear for them for what they did and pray for them.
The story of David and Saul reminds us although David could have killed Saul, he didn't, because he respect Saul as God's ordained king.
"The story of David and Saul reminds us although David could have killed Saul, he didn't, because he respect Saul as God's ordained king."
God has His own way to do His work. He could do any way to remove Yi and it is not something we can understand. Yes, we all fear God and we believe every thing is under God's control. In another hand, no one can remove Yi if God want him to stay in DCBC. God use His way to remove Saul and another way to remove Yi.
"why do you think God could use his mouth to preach God's word? God's word is not come out from a cheater's mouth."
Paul was a persecutor of the church.
David was a murderer (Uriah/Bathsheba)
Abraham was a liar (lied at least twice about Sarah being his sister)
Peter denied Christ Himself three times.
Zaccheus cheated his fellow Jews through taxes...
They were all sinners. But one thing they had in common was that they repented. And God forgave them and used them mightily in spite of their failures for His glory because our God is merciful, gracious and abounding in love. He is a God of second, third, fourth... chances. Yet we gave Pastor Yi very little grace.
I'm not a follower of Pastor Yi (so please do not accuse me of such). His leaving was within God's sovereignty. But that does not stop us from examining whether as a church, we have been gracious, loving and above reproach throughout the process of removing him.
I truly believe that although God is sovereign it does not mean He is pleased with everything that He allows to occur. Sin happens in this world within His sovereignty, but does not mean sin pleases Him.
"They were all sinners. But one thing they had in common was that they repented."
Yes, God use these people because they repented. Yi did not repented for what he done to DCBC. What is a real repented? Paul gave up his rich life and spent his entire life to preach gospel Zaccheus repaid to whom he cheated. LUKE 19:8 - And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
I did not see anything Yi ever done to repaid for what he cheated. Also these 2 was sinned before they knew God. why I said Yi never repented? because he lie over and over. He lie about served more than 300 congregation church in interview and it was caught on the tape. when he reply elder's letters he lie again by saying he never said he serve church more than 300. so do you think use more lie to cover another is so call repented?
"I truly believe that although God is sovereign it does not mean He is pleased with everything that He allows to occur. Sin happens in this world within His sovereignty, but does not mean sin pleases Him."
Again, you are not God Himself, you don't know what really please God. God is sinless. Did Paul preached God's word when he committed sin? Did God enjoyed David's songs before David repented.
"They were all sinners. But one thing they had in common was that they repented."
You got the point! Up to now Mr.Yi
still making excuses for his lying. Even on the last day in DCBC, he could still find an excuse to keep church's laptop for his own use.
"(whether we attend the "official" Wed night prayer meeting".
You don't have to if you don't feel like to, but if you respect pastor's position, you need to respect church's position too.
Don,t forget Paul's ending!
If you had been hire as a surgeon, but you told your patient that you did not have a proper training. Will you let him try? Ordained by God or by man??
Anonymous said: "I did not see anything Yi ever done to repaid for what he cheated"
Pastor Yi apologized to the congregation and said he asked for the Lord's forgiveness for the mistake on his resume.
Anonymous said: "Also these 2 was sinned before they knew God"
What about David? He sinned during the latter part of his life, after God had blessed him with the kingdom.
Anonymous said: "you are not God Himself, you don't know what really please God."
I am not God, but God gave us His word through Scriptures to discern what is pleasing to Him and what is not. He is gracious, loving, merciful, forgiving and the way the church handled the situation has not been reflective of His character.
If you had been hire as a surgeon, but you told your patient that you did not have a proper training. Will you let him try? Ordained by God or by man??
The qualification accusation is probably the most "stupid" one. The original qualifications were bented by us so we can rush pastor Yi in. And now we turned around and say he doesn't have proper training? What about the brothers and sisters in the other churches he served before? Are you saying that they are ignorant to have pastor Yi to serve them?
Maybe the only difference is the sheep he cared for....those in DCBC will bite if they don't like the shepherd!
"What about the brothers and sisters in the other churches he served before? "
They have been cheated too. Yi listed the same school that he never attended as his eduacation background at three different places. After he got caught here, he "apologized to the congregation and said he asked for the Lord's forgiveness for the mistake on his resume." He asked God to forgive his "honest mistake", which obviously was an dishonest mistake, so he has been dishonest to God too. You call it an apology? repent?
We don't care his intention of lying, we only see what has been presented to us.
http://www.sermoncentral.com/pastors-preaching-articles/erik-raymond-do-you-know-the-most-dangerous-person-in-your-church-1086.asp?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BetterPreachingUpdate
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; HATRED, DISCORD, jealousy, FITS OF RAGE, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, forbearance, KINDNESS, goodness, faithfulness, 23 GENTLENESS and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
If you are able to find out who I am, you can tell I said things that I feel true to myself, I don't believe in "rumor". "gossip", "falsify", or "slander", I barely just responded to what I read here that I think is wrong and people need to be aware of or think more about it.
Ephesians 4
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely HUMBLE and GENTLE; be PATIENT, bearing with one another in LOVE. 3 Make every effort to keep the UNITY of the SPIRIT through the bond of PEACE...
11月19日禁食禱告會內容包括認罪,不知是要會友認什麼罪？請伊牧師離開DCBC是罪嗎？那麼認罪後悔改,是否意味着須將伊牧師請回來才算沒罪嗎？
若不是認這罪,那究竟是應認那一樣罪？為何不為弟兄姊妹的同心及求主保守DCBC來禱告？
若是為教會處理伊牧師事而認罪禁食禱告,我將不會出席這樣的禱告會,太令我失望了,為教會守望也算罪嗎？公義何在？
每个人都有罪，假如你不知自己罪在何处，建议你祷告求圣灵光照
說的好，說的好，認罪禱告會就由國語 B組領頭吧，如果不是他們的姑息養姦，伊老早就被趕出敎會了！！
我想你是来搅局的，我们将不再回应
若只認自己私人的罪,何須全教會花5小時一同禁食禱告？這麼重大的禱告應是為DCBC禱告。伊牧師的陰影仍在DCBC。
The following is from an email sent by Elder Wang to all fellowships which I think can summarize the purpose of this pray meeting:
"It is important for the whole church to come to God and humble ourselves before him to repent and ask for forgiveness. It is also important that through prayers we can forgive those who had wronged us and we can ask for forgiveness from those we had offended."
In my humble opinion, since Yi was gone, DCBC leadship is trying to calm down the congregation and reconcile with Yi's supporters who chose to stay. I think this is a sensible thing to do.
讓我們一同為DCBC守望禱告.
to repent what？
The only way to make Yi's supporters happy is to let Yi return to DCBC.
In my personal opinion, Yi's issues are done. He can't come back to DCBC anymore.
If you are not happy with DCBC or have issues with the elders or deacons decision, find and visit another church, compare and come back if you feel DCBC is your home church.
It is time to move on and seek unity. No need to fight over YI's , he is part of DCBC history.
我們須要迫切的禱告,魔鬼真是太恐佈了,他用伊把會友甚至牧師都不要主耶穌,卻耍跟著伊把DCBC拆毀.伊還大大讚美被他迷惑的弟兄.我們怎能不禱告呢?我們唯有定眼在神,連牧師都不可靠,愚蠢,敗壞.
(1)我們為神的教會禱告,神的名及神的事工禱告
(2)為留下的弟兄姊妹屬靈禱告,我們不要懷疑,堅定信心,為我們的孩子們禱告,讓他們不受影響
(3)為離去的弟兄姊妹禱告,不要因此離開神,更希望他們有分辨的靈,不耍再上魔鬼的堂
绝大部分的牧师都为神忠心事奉，我们应为此时时感恩。我们要因着这次教会的不幸而大大的警醒，但切切不可失去信心
所有的禱告事項都可同心禱告,唯有關於伊牧師的事要我們認罪悔改repent,討好對方,對忠心守望DCBC的弟兄姊妹不公平,因這簡直是,是非不分,黑白顛倒.
你所谓“伊牧师的事”其实有二：
1。他的职位：他不能做主任牧师，这是肯定的
2。他的个人：跟大家一样都是罪人，都应该被饶恕。很不容易做到，所以要祷告，弟兄姊妹互相劝勉，找回那起初的爱心。假如我们现在对他个人还有负面的情绪，那绝对需要向神认罪悔改了
"請伊牧師離開DCBC是罪嗎?"
請問我們用的手段可以說得上是"請"嗎?
從世俗世界的人，或許比我們所謂的基督徒可以顯示更多的恩典...
明的看,伊是自己辭職走的,實在他明白得很,投票的結果,他是走定了,而且一毛也拿不到,是他在耍手段,要走了,還謊言一堆,辱罵教會及長老.他オ是連世俗人都不如,更別提是基督徒.
前位弟兄或姊妹,也請告訴和你一樣的弟兄姊妹,去查看很多人證物證,伊有一籮筐的濫歷史.
一年半不到的時間,他就把DCBC弄得支離破碎,人仰馬翻,天翻地覆,這是神的教會,你屬靈的家,我們一起事奉多年的弟兄姊妹就被他快要毀了,你看不見嗎?難道是你做的?還是我做的?我不承認是我做的,你承認是你引起的嗎?
說得很對，明明是為了愛護dcbc才須要伊牧師離開現在却被認為這是犯罪須悔改,究竟是怎麼回事？
像是在傷口上灑鹽巴
1 Samuel 26:9-11
But David said to abishi, don't destroy him! Who can lay a hand on the Lord's anointed and be guiltless? As surely as the Lord lives, the Lord himself will strike him, either his time will come and he will die, or he will go into battle and perish. But the Lord forbid that I lay a hand on the Lord's anointed...
26:23
the Lord rewards every man for his righteousness and faithfulness. The Lord delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the Lord's anointed.
"but I would not lay a hand on the Lord's anointed."
Do you remember Jim Baker or Ted Haggar or other disgraced pastors? Do you still let them preach to you or your church every Sunday?
I just read this real life ad:
"Harvard University Extension School offers a selection of online courses for free. Open to everyone (not just Harvard students)! You will not receive Harvard University course credit, nor a diploma for completing them.. just knowledge!"
What do you think when you see this? you say "of course, it's common sense".
Now if someone put "Harvard University" in his resume with no indication of "extention school", and claim that he got exact same level of education as regular Harvard student, what do you think?
Then for the work experiences, he claimed that he worked for places that much bigger than they really were, and later deny saying that, even accused people for misaccusing him.
We can say this guy cheated his way to his position.
We shouldn't lay a hand on him, he should've resigned long ago.
Thanksgiving Day… God’s daunting Law Christ mastered in my stead…
As it is self explanatory, Thanksgiving Day is the day we give thanks for what the Lord has done for us. I'm sure that all of us are familiar with the origin and the history behind the Thanksgiving Day. Is it not Thanksgiving Day supposed to be a joyful day that we give thanks to God for His blessings and fulfilling our needs? Why then many people feel more exhausted and depressed during this day compared to any of the day (non holiday) of the year?
As I was doing my devotion this morning, I explore the book of Hebrews which I have been reading for my BSF assignment this week. I could not help to focus on Hebrews 4:9-11.
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
To many, rest means cessation of any routine activity. To Theodore, rest means sleeping or laying and doing nothing. To some, this may not sound such a bad idea but enjoyable for a limited time. If the meaning of rest was accurate as described above, we should be refreshed every time we “rest”. The fact is, it is not so. I am sure most, if not all, of us have had heard this statement, “I am so tired of resting? How could one get tired from resting? Rest in a biblical meaning is far from the meaning of cessation of any physical activity. Instead, it is the act and choice that we, His children, make to completely surrender ourselves and our control to God. Rest is the end of self focus and self effort. It is God’s purpose for His children to have true oneness with Him through Christ who has mastered God’s daunting law in our stead. How are we in this day of Thanksgiving? Are we weary and worn out? I know I am. Let us find rest in the One who said, “28Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11-28-29.
Happy Thanksgiving!
希望長老安排講員時也能考慮會衆心聲勿獨自决定有如伊牧師
回樓上: 有講員肯來，我們都要掩半邊嘴偷笑了。請收歛一下你們的"大枝嘢"性格，實在難頂!
回應回樓上: 什麼是"大枝嘢",非常粗俗.意思是獨行獨斷,如....有愛心的牧者知道羊群需要時會委身.不像一些自以為是的. 正如詩篇23篇:耶和華是我的牧者,我必不至缺乏.我們不要濫用, 要請有對神負擔的牧者.
寧缺勿濫， 神要求基督徒有他的樣式，是需要嚴謹的教導，不按照聖經教導羊群的講員，有必要請嗎?
(耶23:2) 耶和華以色列的神斥責那些牧養他百姓的牧人、如此說、你們趕散我的羊群、並沒有看顧他們．我必討你們這行惡的罪．這是耶和華說的 。
(弗4:29) 污穢的言語、一句不可出口
"大XX" 這粗俗語應避免使用，否則如何教導下一代，求神憐憫!
回樓上: 對不起，但我找不到更貼切的字眼來形容這等超 Arrogant 的人。用這三個字，算有禮貌了。
BTW, 你顧掂自己的下一代先啦...
你們對講員牧師的挑剔實在是無出其右。什麼要請"對神有負擔的牧者"，什麼"不按照聖經教導羊群的講員"...? 真懂用尺度人，口氣之大簡直無法形容。不如自己回家找鏡子照照，看看自己夠不夠資格聽罷!
不是"大枝嘢",是啥?
How to blow up a church by Dr. Robert Jeffress
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/pathway-to-victory/player/how-to-blow-up-a-church-242008.html
凡不贊同教會而離職的教牧,永不應再回來教導,以免造成另一波的分裂
回應: - BTW, 你顧掂自己的下一代先啦...
感謝主! 我們三代都是重生得救的基督徒，有侍奉、
有專業維持生計。
Creepy is the word to describe DCBC.
Can this be blog disappear PLEASE??? I hate that this is a testimony of the dear church I grew up in. Whoever created this blog may think that it reflects Pastor ??, but unfortunately it reflects on DCBC. It is ugly. Please take it off. Thank you.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
It's time to heal!
Peter
Who cares? DCBC has been a questionable and struggling church before all this drama occurred. I grew up going as a child and observed this at a very young age. Drama unfolds because people focus on things that are not issues, are cowards and participate in gossip and have a conservative view on life that is not reflective on a religion but rather their own judgemental thinking in which they associate with 'religion'. In my opinion, this church has always been childlike.
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